• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

White House to Push Gun Control

Viktyr Korimir said:
Bearing arms is a universal human right. The government of Illinois has no more right banning citizens from owning and carrying weapons than does the federal government.
Click to expand...

if a city wants to get together and decide a different way to protect themselves i won't begrudge them that right. doesn't mean i'd wanna live there.
 
Zyroh said:
wow, so many views on gun laws. wouldn't it be amazing if each locality could come up with their own laws and weren't dictated to by a larger bureaucracy.
Click to expand...

States, counties and cities are required to respect my Constitutional right to free speech, freedom of religion, right to be secure in my person and papers from unreasonable search, etc etc.... the 2A should recieve similar respect and not be infringed by any branch or division of any government within the United States.


Besides, travelling as a pistol-packer is hard enough already.
 
Zyroh said:
if a city wants to get together and decide a different way to protect themselves i won't begrudge them that right. doesn't mean i'd wanna live there.
Click to expand...

I'm just not that big a fan of democracy.
 
TurtleDude said:
1) I have problems with non citizens whining about our freedom
2) your silly nonsense that a gun law is going to change the crime rate is contradicted by facts
3) why has English rates of violent crime increased as they have banned guns while our rates have decreased as we have increased gun ownership
4) If you factor out gun crime perpetrated by inner city black drug abusers, our gun rate crime is lower than whites in Europe and England. IN other words, a minority skews the statistics.

5) you prove you are completely clueless about America when you void crap like "unrestricted gun sales"
Click to expand...

Alright then:

1) This isn't AmericanDebatePolitics, so my opinion is as worthy as yours on the matter. Furthermore, it's basely xenophobic to disregard a foreigner's opinion on how to fix your nation, when it might just be, in fact, that a foreigner's viewpoint will bring the solutions that are readily unapparent in America.

2) I would like you to show me these facts claiming to contradict my less guns = less gun crime theory. Because I've already shown you facts proving my point. The burden of proof is on you to overturn my evidence.

3) Violent crime has increased since the gun ban in the 90's about 4%. The amount of murders there are in a year, EVEN EXCLUDING GUN RELATED MURDERS IN BOTH COUNTRIES, is still an order of magnitude higher in the States than in the UK. Then you get to add on the 11,000 violent gun crimes a year in the States, and you can see how ridiculous your claim was

4) You're wrong, and I'll explain it to you with very, very simply math, so that it just might take root in your head. Fact One: There are 11,000 violent gun crimes in the US per year. Fact Two: There are on average about 70 in the UK per year. Fact Three: Whites make up about 80% of the US population, with blacks making up about 10% of the population. What this means is, you are attributing in excess of 10,930 gun crimes per year to a demographic that is A) Quickly moving into the middle class, and B) 1/8th the population of whites in America. To me, that just sounds like racist, fearmongering bull****e.

5) I'm really not all that clueless about America, as I just proved you wrong on all five of your points, didn't I?
 
Le Marteau said:
Alright then:

1) This isn't AmericanDebatePolitics, so my opinion is as worthy as yours on the matter. Furthermore, it's basely xenophobic to disregard a foreigner's opinion on how to fix your nation, when it might just be, in fact, that a foreigner's viewpoint will bring the solutions that are readily unapparent in America.

2) I would like you to show me these facts claiming to contradict my less guns = less gun crime theory. Because I've already shown you facts proving my point. The burden of proof is on you to overturn my evidence.

3) Violent crime has increased since the gun ban in the 90's about 4%. The amount of murders there are in a year, EVEN EXCLUDING GUN RELATED MURDERS IN BOTH COUNTRIES, is still an order of magnitude higher in the States than in the UK. Then you get to add on the 11,000 violent gun crimes a year in the States, and you can see how ridiculous your claim was

4) You're wrong, and I'll explain it to you with very, very simply math, so that it just might take root in your head. Fact One: There are 11,000 violent gun crimes in the US per year. Fact Two: There are on average about 70 in the UK per year. Fact Three: Whites make up about 80% of the US population, with blacks making up about 10% of the population. What this means is, you are attributing in excess of 10,930 gun crimes per year to a demographic that is A) Quickly moving into the middle class, and B) 1/8th the population of whites in America. To me, that just sounds like racist, fearmongering bull****e.

5) I'm really not all that clueless about America, as I just proved you wrong on all five of your points, didn't I?
Click to expand...

1) no your opinion matters not to me since you are a subject who has been disarmed by your government. i understand the teachings of Aesop's fable about the fox that lost its tail or -more appropriately a bull that has become a steer and how misery enjoys company. that you revel in being disarmed is your problem but you can never make an argument that freedom is not worth its costs

2) the problem is that you cannot make an argument when we have one society that castrated its citizens for decades or centuries and thus never had many arms vs one where it was a birthright since our founding. the fact is you cannot try to impose the mentality of sheep on a nation of sheep dogs. So trying to impose the mindset of the castrati on us is just plain silly and trying to ban guns or severely regulate them in a society that has at least 300 million guns is just plain stupid

furthermore our rate of gun violence is very low for the majority of our citizens--white americans and asian americans have a lower rate of gun violence than whites living in continental europe or England. black drug trade is the cause of most gun violence in the USA-for example in a two year period, my home city which is 43% black had about 110 murders-every one of them was perpetrated by a black male.


3) our rate of gun crime has decreased in the 17 year period after clinton tried to restrict gun sales which in reality caused massive increases in gun ownerhip. being an expert on guns, I was getting dozens of calls from people who owned NO GUNS prior to the Clinton regime asking me what sort of guns to buy. Clinton's idiocy caused millions upon millions of guns to be sold and at least 50 million normal capacity (ie over 10 rounds) magazines to be made that would not have been made in reaction to his 'assault weapon ban'

4) a joint interpol/FBI study released in 1999 and widely distributed to US law enforcement agencies and later reported in National Review confirmed the fact that white americans have less violent crime per capita than their counterparts in Europe

5) even if you could prove that our freedom causes more crime you still cannot win the argument since many of us value freedom more than government attempts to make us safe by disarming us

you have only one arrow in your quiver-that gun laws or bans would make us safer which you cannot prove will even work in our nation and the experiences of places like Chicago and DC suggest you are wrong but we have many arguments on our side that do not require a speculative belief that gun restrictions will make us safer

in other words, unless you can prove that euro style nanny castration would make us noticeably safer you completely fail yet even if you can establish your argument you have not won since there are many good reasons to be an armed citizens EVEN IF IT MAKES US LESS SAFE due to crime.
 
ptif219 said:
Here we go Obama playing politics and using a tragedy to forward his agenda
.
Click to expand...

Iin all countries Communists had firstly prohibited the guns by citizens, secondly they transformed their countries to prisons.
 
Alfons said:
Iin all countries Communists had firstly prohibited the guns by citizens, secondly they transformed their countries to prisons.
Click to expand...

Incarceration in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world. The U.S. incarceration rate on June 30, 2009 was 748 inmates per 100,000 U.S. residents, or 0.75%. The USA also has the highest total documented prison and jail population in the world.
Click to expand...
 
Le Marteau said:
Alright then:

1) This isn't AmericanDebatePolitics, so my opinion is as worthy as yours on the matter. Furthermore, it's basely xenophobic to disregard a foreigner's opinion on how to fix your nation, when it might just be, in fact, that a foreigner's viewpoint will bring the solutions that are readily unapparent in America.

2) I would like you to show me these facts claiming to contradict my less guns = less gun crime theory. Because I've already shown you facts proving my point. The burden of proof is on you to overturn my evidence.

3) Violent crime has increased since the gun ban in the 90's about 4%. The amount of murders there are in a year, EVEN EXCLUDING GUN RELATED MURDERS IN BOTH COUNTRIES, is still an order of magnitude higher in the States than in the UK. Then you get to add on the 11,000 violent gun crimes a year in the States, and you can see how ridiculous your claim was

4) You're wrong, and I'll explain it to you with very, very simply math, so that it just might take root in your head. Fact One: There are 11,000 violent gun crimes in the US per year. Fact Two: There are on average about 70 in the UK per year. Fact Three: Whites make up about 80% of the US population, with blacks making up about 10% of the population. What this means is, you are attributing in excess of 10,930 gun crimes per year to a demographic that is A) Quickly moving into the middle class, and B) 1/8th the population of whites in America. To me, that just sounds like racist, fearmongering bull****e.

5) I'm really not all that clueless about America, as I just proved you wrong on all five of your points, didn't I?
Click to expand...

Here in America we love are freedoms and are rights.
 
Le Marteau said:
Alright then:

1) This isn't AmericanDebatePolitics, so my opinion is as worthy as yours on the matter. Furthermore, it's basely xenophobic to disregard a foreigner's opinion on how to fix your nation, when it might just be, in fact, that a foreigner's viewpoint will bring the solutions that are readily unapparent in America.
Click to expand...
Spoken like a true decendant of King George III. I believe this issue was sorted by a Mr. Isaiah Thomas, July 14th, 1776 in Worchester Mass.

Le Marteau said:
2) I would like you to show me these facts claiming to contradict my less guns = less gun crime theory. Because I've already shown you facts proving my point. The burden of proof is on you to overturn my evidence.
Click to expand...
It's been done dozens of times on these an other forum boards. Use the search function.

Le Marteau said:
3) Violent crime has increased since the gun ban in the 90's about 4%.
Click to expand...
Well. There you go.


Le Marteau said:
4) You're wrong, and I'll explain it to you with very, very simply math, so that it just might take root in your head. Fact One: There are 11,000 violent gun crimes in the US per year.
Click to expand...
Yes. We're a relatively big country compared to the UK.

Le Marteau said:
Fact Two: There are on average about 70 in the UK per year.
Click to expand...
Yes, the UK is a relatively small country compared to the U.S.

Le Marteau said:
Fact Three: Whites make up about 80% of the US population, with blacks making up about 10% of the population. What this means is, you are attributing in excess of 10,930 gun crimes per year to a demographic that is A) Quickly moving into the middle class, and B) 1/8th the population of whites in America. To me, that just sounds like racist, fearmongering bull****e.
Click to expand...
Is it still racist if it's true?

Study: Almost Half of Murder Victims Black - washingtonpost.com

(Page 2 of 19) - African Americans and Crime: A Residential Segregation Explanation authored by Ortiz, Juanita. and McGhee, Meghan.


Sure there are those who say the justice system is biased against blacks - and there is some individual cases that have proven this. It has not however, a nation wide issue with the justice department nor with the laws of which the justice systems uses, in every jurisdiction, in ever county, in every state ... you want to call it racist? Fine. But the black community even acknowledges it.

Bill Cosby Scorches Black Culture and Education

Le Marteau said:
5) I'm really not all that clueless about America, as I just proved you wrong on all five of your points, didn't I?
Click to expand...
Actually you didn't. You know about as much of America as I do of England. I know you call potato chips "crisps", I know you like your comedy and private schools, I know you have a parliamentary system and various other trivialities. I have never lived in England, never understood the nuances of it's society and never experienced them. Therefore, you vomit snippets of news and culture you read and hear on the tele. Don't insult my or anyone else's intelligence by claiming you know America. It's very embarrassing.
 
Last edited:
TurtleDude said:
the drug prohibition causes much of that-so if you decry that you should also oppose attempts to create a massive black market for small arms as well
Click to expand...

I'm actually pro-Second amendment.

I just find the idea that prohibiting guns turns a country into a prison...

When a country fully armed to the teeth has the highest prison population in the world :2razz:
 
Jetboogieman said:
When a country fully armed to the teeth has the highest prison population in the world :2razz:
Click to expand...


So the key to proving your point is to link the prison population effectively with legal gun ownership. Can you do that?
 
Le Marteau said:
Alright then:

1) This isn't AmericanDebatePolitics, so my opinion is as worthy as yours on the matter. Furthermore, it's basely xenophobic to disregard a foreigner's opinion on how to fix your nation, when it might just be, in fact, that a foreigner's viewpoint will bring the solutions that are readily unapparent in America.

2) I would like you to show me these facts claiming to contradict my less guns = less gun crime theory. Because I've already shown you facts proving my point. The burden of proof is on you to overturn my evidence.

3) Violent crime has increased since the gun ban in the 90's about 4%. The amount of murders there are in a year, EVEN EXCLUDING GUN RELATED MURDERS IN BOTH COUNTRIES, is still an order of magnitude higher in the States than in the UK. Then you get to add on the 11,000 violent gun crimes a year in the States, and you can see how ridiculous your claim was

4) You're wrong, and I'll explain it to you with very, very simply math, so that it just might take root in your head. Fact One: There are 11,000 violent gun crimes in the US per year. Fact Two: There are on average about 70 in the UK per year. Fact Three: Whites make up about 80% of the US population, with blacks making up about 10% of the population. What this means is, you are attributing in excess of 10,930 gun crimes per year to a demographic that is A) Quickly moving into the middle class, and B) 1/8th the population of whites in America. To me, that just sounds like racist, fearmongering bull****e.

5) I'm really not all that clueless about America, as I just proved you wrong on all five of your points, didn't I?
Click to expand...



the Kleck Study:
Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology

Number Of Protective Uses Of Firearms In U.S: Projected at a minimum of 2.5 million cases annually, equal to 1% of total U.S. population each year. Criminal assailants are killed by their victims or others in only about 0.1%, and wounded in only about 1.0% of incidents as described above. Most such crimes are prevented by mere presence of a firearm in the hands of an intended victim.(Dr. Gary Kleck, PhD, Florida State University, Targeting Guns, 1998)
Click to expand...


A 1993 Gallup Poll study (hardly a conservative partisan group) found a likely annual rate of defensive gun use (DGU) of 777,153 per year in the US.
An LA Times 1994 study found an implied national DGU of 3,609,682.

National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).

Data from the NCVS imply that each year there are only about 68,000 defensive uses of guns in connection with assaults and robberies, [16] or about 80,000 to 82,000 if one adds in uses linked with household burglaries. [17] These figures are less than one ninth of the estimates implied by the results of at least thirteen other surveys, summarized in Table 1, most of which have been previously reported. [18] The NCVS estimates imply that about 0.09 of 1% of U.S. households experience a defensive gun use (DGU) in any one year, compared to the Mauser survey's estimate of 3.79% of households over a five year period, or about 0.76% in any one year, assuming an even distribution over the five year period, and no repeat uses. [19]
The strongest evidence that a measurement is inaccurate is that it is inconsistent with many other independent measurements or observations of the same phenomenon; indeed, some would argue that this is ultimately the only way of knowing that a measurement is wrong. Therefore, one might suppose that the gross inconsistency of the NCVS-based estimates with all other known estimates, each derived from sources with no known flaws even remotely substantial enough to account for nine-to-one, or more, discrepancies, would be sufficient to persuade any serious scholar that the NCVS estimates are unreliable.
...The NCVS was not designed to estimate how often people resist crime using a gun. It was designed primarily to estimate national victimization levels; it incidentally happens to include a few self-protection questions which include response categories covering resistance with a gun.
Click to expand...


The Kleck study concluded that there were possibly as many as 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year, many of which involved no shots fired or no one injured, and many of which were not reported:
The most technically sound estimates presented in Table 2 are those based on the shorter one-year recall period that rely on Rs' first-hand accounts of their own experiences (person-based estimates). These estimates appear in the first two columns. They indicate that each year in the U.S. there are about 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs of all types by civilians against humans, with about 1.5 to 1.9 million of the incidents involving use of handguns.
Click to expand...

These Wikipedia articles are good sources of general information on concealed-carry permits and related issues.
They include information from both pro and anti perspectives.

Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law.[61]

Permit holders are a remarkably law-abiding subclass of the population. Florida, which has issued over 1,408,907 permits in twenty one years, has revoked only 166 for a "crime after licensure involving a firearm," and fewer than 4,500 permits for any reason.[62]
Click to expand...

More Guns, Less Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

John Lott's study is not without controversy, but despite nit-picking about techincal proceedures remains siginficant:
Lott examines the effects of shall issue laws on violent crime across the United States.

His conclusion is that shall issue laws, which allow citizens to carry concealed weapons, steadily decrease violent crime. He explains that this result makes sense because criminals are deterred by the risk of attacking an armed victim. As more citizens arm themselves, the danger to criminals increases.
Click to expand...


From the FBI Uniform Crime Report:
Expanded Homicide Data - Crime in the United States 2009

Of the offenders for whom race was known, 51.6 percent were black, 46.3 percent were white, and 2.1 percent were of other races. The race was unknown for 4,339 offenders.

Violent crime in the USA has been falling for a long time, at the same time as gun ownership has increased...

When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2009 estimated violent crime total was
5.2 percent below the 2005 level and 7.5 percent below the 2000 level.
Click to expand...

Violent Crime - Crime in the United States 2009
Coinciding with a surge in gun purchases that began shortly before the 2008 elections, violent crime decreased six percent between 2008 and 2009, including an eight percent decrease in murder and a nine percent decrease in robbery.1 Since 1991, when violent crime peaked, it has decreased 43 percent to a 35-year low. Murder has fallen 49 percent to a 45-year low.2 At the same time, the number of guns that Americans own has risen by about 90 million.
Click to expand...

Over the last quarter-century, many federal, state and local gun control laws have been eliminated or made less restrictive. The federal “assault weapon” ban, upon which gun control supporters claimed public safety hinged, expired in 2004 and the murder rate has since dropped 10 percent. The federal handgun waiting period, for years the centerpiece of gun control supporters’ agenda, expired in 1998, in favor of the NRA-supported national Instant Check, and the murder rate has since dropped 21 percent.
Click to expand...

NRA-ILA :: More Guns, Less Crime Again

UK violent crime:
The United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) has low levels of gun ownership and generally one of the lowest rates of intentional gun deaths. However, this is only in mainland Great Britain. Firearms ownership is still very high in Northern Ireland. Private ownership of firearms is far more common and largely accepted in rural areas.[24] The gun crime rate rose between 1997 and 2004 but has since slightly receded,[25] while the number of murders from gun crime has largely remained static over the past decade.[26] Over the course of the 20th century, the UK gradually implemented tighter regulation of the civilian ownership of firearms through the enactment of the 1968, 1988, 1994 and 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Acts[27] leading to the current outright ban on the ownership of all automatic, and most self-loading, firearms in the UK. The ownership of breech-loading handguns is, in particular, also very tightly controlled and effectively limited
Click to expand...

UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph

The United Kingdom is the violent crime capital of Europe and has one of the highest rates of violence in the world, worse even than America, according to new research.
By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent 7:00AM BST 02 Jul 2009
Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power.

The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

The figures were sourced from Eurostat, the European Commission's database of statistics. They are gathered using official sources in the countries concerned such as the national statistics office, the national prison administration, ministries of the interior or justice, and police.

...

It means there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the UK, making it the most violent place in Europe.

By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000 population.
Click to expand...



So tell me again how the UK is less violent than America? And how we need to learn from the UK, with a violent crime rate four times as high as the US?
 
Jetboogieman said:
I'm actually pro-Second amendment.

I just find the idea that prohibiting guns turns a country into a prison...

When a country fully armed to the teeth has the highest prison population in the world :2razz:
Click to expand...

Prisons are a growth industry. It's about jobs. :roll:
 
Le Marteau said:
Did.. Did you intentionally misspell "our", or are all the stereotypes I've ever heard overwhelmingly true?
Click to expand...

that's pretty lame but I guess that's all you have left on this issue
 
TurtleDude said:
that's pretty lame but I guess that's all you have left on this issue
Click to expand...

It was an honest question, and I was expecting an honest answer. Which I suppose was pretty silly of me, yeah, because all I ever get from the rest of the neocon teabagging tools is denial and ignorance, like in your response to my five points.

I think I can sum up your argument a bit more succinctly than you did:


"YOU COMMIE EUROPEANERS HATE MAH FREEDOM!"






On a totally random note, you might find this interesting:

Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Le Marteau said:
It was an honest question, and I was expecting an honest answer. Which I suppose was pretty silly of me, yeah, because all I ever get from the rest of the neocon teabagging tools is denial and ignorance, like in your response to my five points.

I think I can sum up your argument a bit more succinctly than you did:


"YOU COMMIE EUROPEANERS HATE MAH FREEDOM!"






On a totally random note, you might find this interesting:

Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

nah: more like castratis want more men to be like them
 
Le Marteau said:
Alright, so, do you have any response to the link I posted, or are you just going to agree with me that you've said what might amount to the Stupidest Claim of the Year?
Click to expand...

1) that link is highly subjective and is based on a flawed value system. for example, a country that disarms its people is not free but if you oppose gun ownership you wont use that to downgrade a country's freedom index

2) who gives a damn-the issue is guns

3) I note you avoided dealing with my burden of proof issue-the only argument you can advance is based on public safety-there is absolutely no moral, philosophical or rights-based argument in favor of gun restrictions--the only argument you can make is a public saftey one and the fact and evidence relevant to THIS NATION is that more restrictions have no proof of increasing public safety

thus you lose the argument because, as i have noted-even if you could prove more restrictions would create more safety there are plenty of valid reasons for opposing such restrictions--just as we oppose presuming indicted defendants are presumed guilty or that defendants are not entitled to legal counsel. we could obviously create saftey by denying prisoners such rights but there are more important things to us
 
I have a question, I just watched a very good show called sons of guns which kind of makes me lean more towards gun control. How you can shoot a grenade launcher in the air over a city?!
 
pro-bipartisan said:
I have a question, I just watched a very good show called sons of guns which kind of makes me lean more towards gun control. How you can shoot a grenade launcher in the air over a city?!
Click to expand...

How can you? By aiming high I guess.
 
Le Marteau said:
It was an honest question, and I was expecting an honest answer. Which I suppose was pretty silly of me, yeah, because all I ever get from the rest of the neocon teabagging tools is denial and ignorance, like in your response to my five points.

I think I can sum up your argument a bit more succinctly than you did:


"YOU COMMIE EUROPEANERS HATE MAH FREEDOM!"






On a totally random note, you might find this interesting:

Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


So apparently you're just going to ignore that I refuted the **** out of your arguments with sourced data, in favor of trying to troll a couple other forumites?

:roll:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom