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Thread: White House to Push Gun Control

  1. #361
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    Re: White House to Push Gun Control

    the drug prohibition causes much of that-so if you decry that you should also oppose attempts to create a massive black market for small arms as well



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    Re: White House to Push Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the drug prohibition causes much of that-so if you decry that you should also oppose attempts to create a massive black market for small arms as well
    I'm actually pro-Second amendment.

    I just find the idea that prohibiting guns turns a country into a prison...

    When a country fully armed to the teeth has the highest prison population in the world

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    Re: White House to Push Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post

    When a country fully armed to the teeth has the highest prison population in the world

    So the key to proving your point is to link the prison population effectively with legal gun ownership. Can you do that?
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: White House to Push Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    Alright then:

    1) This isn't AmericanDebatePolitics, so my opinion is as worthy as yours on the matter. Furthermore, it's basely xenophobic to disregard a foreigner's opinion on how to fix your nation, when it might just be, in fact, that a foreigner's viewpoint will bring the solutions that are readily unapparent in America.

    2) I would like you to show me these facts claiming to contradict my less guns = less gun crime theory. Because I've already shown you facts proving my point. The burden of proof is on you to overturn my evidence.

    3) Violent crime has increased since the gun ban in the 90's about 4%. The amount of murders there are in a year, EVEN EXCLUDING GUN RELATED MURDERS IN BOTH COUNTRIES, is still an order of magnitude higher in the States than in the UK. Then you get to add on the 11,000 violent gun crimes a year in the States, and you can see how ridiculous your claim was

    4) You're wrong, and I'll explain it to you with very, very simply math, so that it just might take root in your head. Fact One: There are 11,000 violent gun crimes in the US per year. Fact Two: There are on average about 70 in the UK per year. Fact Three: Whites make up about 80% of the US population, with blacks making up about 10% of the population. What this means is, you are attributing in excess of 10,930 gun crimes per year to a demographic that is A) Quickly moving into the middle class, and B) 1/8th the population of whites in America. To me, that just sounds like racist, fearmongering bull****e.

    5) I'm really not all that clueless about America, as I just proved you wrong on all five of your points, didn't I?


    the Kleck Study:
    Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology

    Number Of Protective Uses Of Firearms In U.S: Projected at a minimum of 2.5 million cases annually, equal to 1% of total U.S. population each year. Criminal assailants are killed by their victims or others in only about 0.1%, and wounded in only about 1.0% of incidents as described above. Most such crimes are prevented by mere presence of a firearm in the hands of an intended victim.(Dr. Gary Kleck, PhD, Florida State University, Targeting Guns, 1998)

    A 1993 Gallup Poll study (hardly a conservative partisan group) found a likely annual rate of defensive gun use (DGU) of 777,153 per year in the US.
    An LA Times 1994 study found an implied national DGU of 3,609,682.

    National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).

    Data from the NCVS imply that each year there are only about 68,000 defensive uses of guns in connection with assaults and robberies, [16] or about 80,000 to 82,000 if one adds in uses linked with household burglaries. [17] These figures are less than one ninth of the estimates implied by the results of at least thirteen other surveys, summarized in Table 1, most of which have been previously reported. [18] The NCVS estimates imply that about 0.09 of 1% of U.S. households experience a defensive gun use (DGU) in any one year, compared to the Mauser survey's estimate of 3.79% of households over a five year period, or about 0.76% in any one year, assuming an even distribution over the five year period, and no repeat uses. [19]
    The strongest evidence that a measurement is inaccurate is that it is inconsistent with many other independent measurements or observations of the same phenomenon; indeed, some would argue that this is ultimately the only way of knowing that a measurement is wrong. Therefore, one might suppose that the gross inconsistency of the NCVS-based estimates with all other known estimates, each derived from sources with no known flaws even remotely substantial enough to account for nine-to-one, or more, discrepancies, would be sufficient to persuade any serious scholar that the NCVS estimates are unreliable.
    ...The NCVS was not designed to estimate how often people resist crime using a gun. It was designed primarily to estimate national victimization levels; it incidentally happens to include a few self-protection questions which include response categories covering resistance with a gun.

    The Kleck study concluded that there were possibly as many as 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year, many of which involved no shots fired or no one injured, and many of which were not reported:
    The most technically sound estimates presented in Table 2 are those based on the shorter one-year recall period that rely on Rs' first-hand accounts of their own experiences (person-based estimates). These estimates appear in the first two columns. They indicate that each year in the U.S. there are about 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs of all types by civilians against humans, with about 1.5 to 1.9 million of the incidents involving use of handguns.
    These Wikipedia articles are good sources of general information on concealed-carry permits and related issues.
    They include information from both pro and anti perspectives.

    Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law.[61]

    Permit holders are a remarkably law-abiding subclass of the population. Florida, which has issued over 1,408,907 permits in twenty one years, has revoked only 166 for a "crime after licensure involving a firearm," and fewer than 4,500 permits for any reason.[62]
    More Guns, Less Crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    John Lott's study is not without controversy, but despite nit-picking about techincal proceedures remains siginficant:
    Lott examines the effects of shall issue laws on violent crime across the United States.

    His conclusion is that shall issue laws, which allow citizens to carry concealed weapons, steadily decrease violent crime. He explains that this result makes sense because criminals are deterred by the risk of attacking an armed victim. As more citizens arm themselves, the danger to criminals increases.

    From the FBI Uniform Crime Report:
    Expanded Homicide Data - Crime in the United States 2009

    Of the offenders for whom race was known, 51.6 percent were black, 46.3 percent were white, and 2.1 percent were of other races. The race was unknown for 4,339 offenders.

    Violent crime in the USA has been falling for a long time, at the same time as gun ownership has increased...

    When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2009 estimated violent crime total was
    5.2 percent below the 2005 level and 7.5 percent below the 2000 level.
    Violent Crime - Crime in the United States 2009
    Coinciding with a surge in gun purchases that began shortly before the 2008 elections, violent crime decreased six percent between 2008 and 2009, including an eight percent decrease in murder and a nine percent decrease in robbery.1 Since 1991, when violent crime peaked, it has decreased 43 percent to a 35-year low. Murder has fallen 49 percent to a 45-year low.2 At the same time, the number of guns that Americans own has risen by about 90 million.
    Over the last quarter-century, many federal, state and local gun control laws have been eliminated or made less restrictive. The federal “assault weapon” ban, upon which gun control supporters claimed public safety hinged, expired in 2004 and the murder rate has since dropped 10 percent. The federal handgun waiting period, for years the centerpiece of gun control supporters’ agenda, expired in 1998, in favor of the NRA-supported national Instant Check, and the murder rate has since dropped 21 percent.
    NRA-ILA :: More Guns, Less Crime Again

    UK violent crime:
    The United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) has low levels of gun ownership and generally one of the lowest rates of intentional gun deaths. However, this is only in mainland Great Britain. Firearms ownership is still very high in Northern Ireland. Private ownership of firearms is far more common and largely accepted in rural areas.[24] The gun crime rate rose between 1997 and 2004 but has since slightly receded,[25] while the number of murders from gun crime has largely remained static over the past decade.[26] Over the course of the 20th century, the UK gradually implemented tighter regulation of the civilian ownership of firearms through the enactment of the 1968, 1988, 1994 and 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Acts[27] leading to the current outright ban on the ownership of all automatic, and most self-loading, firearms in the UK. The ownership of breech-loading handguns is, in particular, also very tightly controlled and effectively limited
    UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph

    The United Kingdom is the violent crime capital of Europe and has one of the highest rates of violence in the world, worse even than America, according to new research.
    By Richard Edwards, Crime Correspondent 7:00AM BST 02 Jul 2009
    Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offences in the UK since Labour came to power.

    The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

    The figures were sourced from Eurostat, the European Commission's database of statistics. They are gathered using official sources in the countries concerned such as the national statistics office, the national prison administration, ministries of the interior or justice, and police.

    ...

    It means there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the UK, making it the most violent place in Europe.

    By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000 population.


    So tell me again how the UK is less violent than America? And how we need to learn from the UK, with a violent crime rate four times as high as the US?

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  5. #365
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    Re: White House to Push Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    I'm actually pro-Second amendment.

    I just find the idea that prohibiting guns turns a country into a prison...

    When a country fully armed to the teeth has the highest prison population in the world
    Prisons are a growth industry. It's about jobs.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: White House to Push Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by cpgrad08 View Post
    Here in America we love are freedoms and are rights.
    Did.. Did you intentionally misspell "our", or are all the stereotypes I've ever heard overwhelmingly true?

  7. #367
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    Re: White House to Push Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    Did.. Did you intentionally misspell "our", or are all the stereotypes I've ever heard overwhelmingly true?
    that's pretty lame but I guess that's all you have left on this issue



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    Re: White House to Push Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that's pretty lame but I guess that's all you have left on this issue
    It was an honest question, and I was expecting an honest answer. Which I suppose was pretty silly of me, yeah, because all I ever get from the rest of the neocon teabagging tools is denial and ignorance, like in your response to my five points.

    I think I can sum up your argument a bit more succinctly than you did:


    "YOU COMMIE EUROPEANERS HATE MAH FREEDOM!"






    On a totally random note, you might find this interesting:

    Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  9. #369
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    Re: White House to Push Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    It was an honest question, and I was expecting an honest answer. Which I suppose was pretty silly of me, yeah, because all I ever get from the rest of the neocon teabagging tools is denial and ignorance, like in your response to my five points.

    I think I can sum up your argument a bit more succinctly than you did:


    "YOU COMMIE EUROPEANERS HATE MAH FREEDOM!"






    On a totally random note, you might find this interesting:

    Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    nah: more like castratis want more men to be like them



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    Re: White House to Push Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    nah: more like castratis want more men to be like them
    Alright, so, do you have any response to the link I posted, or are you just going to agree with me that you've said what might amount to the Stupidest Claim of the Year?

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