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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

PART 2 of 2


In 2007 and 2008, Syrian activists were jailed in Syria. They certainly weren’t the first since 2003….

Twelve pro-democracy activists, currently on trial in Syria, face up to 15 years in prison for calling for democratic reform and respect for human rights. Pro-democracy activists in Syria face 15 years in prison | Amnesty International
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........And THEN Tunisia happened. ......and then Egypt happened… None of this happened before the status quo in the heartland of the Sunni tribe was shattered. Saddam Hussein and the absence of true democracy was the status quo.

Egyptian protestors today speak of America’s mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. While you may wish to separate these, focusing on the details of what took us to each, others see the dramatic shift in the region that both brought.

"The U.S. went to Iraq and Afghanistan because they said they wanted to bring democracy, but their policies are unfair. If America keeps backing this regime and not the revolution, the people in Egypt will be very angry." Egypt and the U.S.: Anti-American sentiment gradually surfaces in Egypt - latimes.com
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And…

But Bush’s argument that Middle Eastern democracy could help drain the ideological swamp in which al Qaeda grew may yet be proved true. Osama bin Laden has never looked more irrelevant than he does this week, as tens of thousands march across the Middle East not for jihad, but for democracy, electricity, and a decent job. Middle Eastern Democracy vs American Control - The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan
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.....and then Yemen. …and Jordan. …and Lebanon. …and?

If Egyptian protestors have Iraq and Afghanistan in ther minds, who the hell are you anti-American (Leftists especially) in the West to deny America its credit for post Cold War vision that you completely lacked (and still do)? Now we are to pretend that even Egyptians don't know their region's changes since Iraq?

Ralph Peters wrote in 2003 that regime change in Iraq would change the world. I not only argue that it has changed and is changing the region, but China’s concerns offers evidence that the world is being affected…

In another era, China’s leaders might have been content to let discussion of the protests in Egypt float around among private citizens, then fizzle out.
But challenges in recent years to authoritarian governments around the globe and violent uprisings in parts of China itself have made Chinese officials increasingly wary of leaving such talk unchecked, especially on the Internet, the medium some officials see as central to fanning the flames of unrest. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/01/world/asia/01beijing.html?_r=1
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Bush haters were willing to mock him for his vision of the future. His haters refused his words in a haste to pretend that they weren’t closet racists and anti-Arabic in nature. Their anti-American default positions would not allow them to use intelligence and wisdom (if they have any) and thusly served to merely make the path even harder for those of could see truth. For those of us who have sweated and bled for this vision, you did nothing to assist. To us, you were as an enemy to us as the ignorant Arab with an AK...

A few days ago, I was finishing up my reading of the book The Greatest Story Ever Sold, written by Bush-hating New York Times writer Frank Rich (Penguin Press, 2006). In the Epilogue, Rich writes two scenarios how Bush's Iraq war may end. He went with the second, the negative one, but here is what he wrote for the first, to describe how things would be if Bush's Middle East plans worked out:
"Perhaps future generations will discover that George W. Bush was a visionary that worked a miracle - that by knocking out one thug in the Middle East he set off a domino effect that led to the democratic reform in a region gripped by totalitarianism, tribal hatreds, and radical fundamentalism. If so, he will be among the luckiest players in the history book, and history tells us that sometimes it does pay to be luckier than smart."American Thinker Blog: George W. Bush: Visionary or just lucky?
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Do you still think the Middle East has had a television blackout towards their neighbors over the years? That they don’t see what is going on within their own civilization? You don’t think they paid attention to Iraq in 2005 as Iraqi Arabs did something historic? ….

The world watches as Iraq becomes a litmus test of democratic success

This caricature depicts the way people in many Arab states, from Algeria to Yemen and passing by Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Syria and Iraq, have learnt about their new constitutions over the past six decades of military rule. So it was a novelty to witness Iraqis struggling in public to write a democratic constitution based on wideranging consultation and compromise.
The world watches as Iraq becomes a litmus test of democratic success | Amir Taheri - Times Online
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…And they were paying attention again in 2010….

Despite the backstage American role, the face of security Sunday was decidedly Iraqi — unlike during the last parliamentary vote in 2005 — with no American patrols visible on the streets, and Iraqi forces manning checkpoints across the country.
This time, Sunnis voted, mainly for the bloc headed by Allawi, a secular Shiite, according to interviews with voters in several cities.
"I had rejected elections on principle since 2003, but a few days ago I decided to participate," said Samir Qaddouri al Jumeili, 34, a health worker and Allawi supporter from majority Sunni Anbar province. He said he expected to find plenty of room for fraud, but was "pleasantly surprised" by the relatively transparent process.Iraq election: Purple fingers, but hard work ahead - CSMonitor.com
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But in case you need further proof that the entire Middle East was paying attention to Iraq’s democracy in 2010……

Iran, Saudi Arabia and other neighbours are keeping a watchful eye on this weekend's parliamentary elections in Iraq – calculating what the outcome is likely to mean for them and the region as a whole.Arab media coverage of the campaign has been intense, with daily special reports on satellite channel al-Jazeera and its Saudi-owned rival, al-Arabiyya.

It is widely assumed that the Saudis, who helped pay insurgent groups in the past, are again discreetly bankrolling their Sunni friends.

Syria is also following events intently.

Turkey, worried about its own restive Kurds, is unhappy with the near-independence of Iraq's Kurds — the biggest winner of the post-Saddam era — but generally takes a pragmatic view while prospects for stability look reasonable.

...this landmark Iraqi election is forcing everyone to look ahead, not back.Neighbours watch Iraq elections for how the outcome affects them | World news | guardian.co.uk
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And for those of you who absolutely needed to see Iraq fail just to satisfy your shallow, visionless, and moronic protests.....
Iraq breaks record for time taken to form a government…
Political parties in Iraq have broken the world record for the amount of time taken to form a new government.BBC News - Iraq breaks record for time taken to form a government
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You see, while you may have been focusing on the latest IED in Iraq, I watched Iraqis vote and I read about Saudi Arabia allowing low level elections for the first time in history. While you were looking for Iraq to erupt into civil war, I was watching Iraqis vote again and read about the Lebanese struggle to crackdown on Hezbollah. While you were looking for failure at every turn in Iraq, I watched other Arab nations appoint ambassadors into Iraq. I watched the modernist voices in Egypt gain strength and unity against Mubarak. I watched Iranians demand fair elections after knowing they were cheated. …..AND then Tunisia had enough of their own government. Tunisia….a country sitting on the fringe of the Arab world. Are you really forcing yourself to believe that Iraq, the very center of the Arab world, escaped their attention over the years? That no one in the Middle East was watching Iraq's progress? Tunisia merely sparked the exponentially growing mood that had already been going on since America’s intervention into Iraq. For those of you who protested Iraqi freedom at all cost……**** you...and thanks for "Supporting the Troop." For those of who you who were above the anti-American rhetoric and political hate mongering thank you for actually "Supporting the Troop." In the end, less of my kind have to bleed as this vision comes true.
 
MSgt said:
I believe what most believe, which is that "stability" was the name of the game. If Mubarak implimented fail safes to ensure proper democracy without disrupting stability, the U.S. government would not have stopped him. As it were, he was the government and we did business with the government. We did notinstall Nasser. We did not install Sadat. Andwedid not install Mubarak. Implying that these men were our puppets only encourages the masses inthe Middle East to hate and murder in the name of an exaggerated lie.
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I did not state the US installed Sadat or Mubarak, just that the US was allied with them, and has provided direct support to the regime which helped keep them in power. The US liked them because they protected US interests in the region, which a democratic government might not. Even now we saw many in the US government call for continued support of Mubarak to protect US interests.
But the Cold War ended in 1989. Nothing prevented the Egyptians from protesting and turning over Mubarak in 1995 in 18 days, but the will of Egyptian people. Thery only found the will in 2011, after the witnessed the dramatic social changes in the region around them. And did we stop them? Or roll our tanks through Cairo? Did the pro American Egyptian military crack down on the people? No. And it is for these reasons one can stepback and declare that status quo of blaming the U.S. for their own culture is exaggerated. And for educated people in the West to preserve that exaggeration is treacherous and dangerous.
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What changed? Primarily economic conditions in Egypt from the looks of it. Rising discontent with high food prices. The fact the egyptian military did not support the Mubarak regime this time, which it might have done in the 90s. Just as the Algerian military took part in a massive crack down on the Algerian people after a rather free democratic vote in the early 90s. I expect the Egyptian people saw that and felt the Egyptian military might do the same

Once again, I bring up Jordan. We deliver aid to this country's government as well. King Abdul II has been trying to give more and more power to the people and they have refused. No American aid is preventing anything. The regional habit to blame the West, especially America, 60 years after the "era of independence," is tired and rediculous.
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Direct american aid assists many of the dictatorships to remain in power, rightists in the US, leftists in the US, and most rational people understand this. Would all fall without direct US assistance, of course not, some would though. So yes American assistance is preventing some arabic countries from becoming democratic or at least the attempt at it
"Would have been?" But it did not. And it would not have in the 1990s. The only ones that don't seem to get that the Cold War is over is the Middle East and anti-Americans who need their scapegoat.
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Who said anything about the cold war? The US has supported dictatorships before during and after the cold war. So have other countries mind you. The US has continued to support many arabic dictatorships after the cold war.

Shall I prove otherwise? This bit of denial is a personal fallacy. You and plenty of others seemtothink that nothing happened between Iraq's vote and Tunisia. The logic of this is foolish and very disrespectful. Review my next post for proof....
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Do not egyptians read, do they not have access to international news? Could they and the Tunisians have gotten their inspiration from the Rose revolution, the orange revolution or the Tulip revolution. All of which involved peacefull protests leading to the fall of dictatorships. Rather then the US invasion of Iraq. Or do you feel Arabic people can only find inspiration from other arabs. Could they not see the sucess that Turkey is enjoying and seek to follow Turkish democracy?

Just to note the US (and George Soros) played large roles in the Rose, and Orange revolutions (and probably the Tulip one as well)
 
apdst said:
Spain, France, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia, Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Serbia, Romania, Hungary, Albania, Slovenia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, Yemen, Somalia, Oman, Kuwait, Syria, Jordon, Israel, India, Gerogia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Turkmenistan, Azerbijan, Usbekistan, England, Canada, The United States have all come under atttack/been occupied by force by militant Muslim forces.

This is Islam's history. Know, love it, live it.
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There is a Muslim military occupation in all those countries? Really?
 
Catawba said:
No, I am referring to the modern day US military occupations around the world. I see no such military occupations by the Arab states.
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....and? Arabs don't have to occupy. Their status quo is to breed the religious terrorism that encourages other nations to have to protect themselves. Were it not for 9/11 there would be no occupation in Afghanistan and Iraq. Were there no Iraqi invasion into Kuwait, there would be no occupation of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. But in the end, all of these governments welcome us to certain extents. We have left Iraq. We will leave Afghanistan.

Your refernce inplies that the Gulf War and 9/11 didn't happen. That America simply decided over night to send its evil military out to slaughter people for the hell of it. That the Nazi Party and so many others have given way to the evil American Empire and the White House Darth Vader. You continual need for America to be the scourge of the earth just doesn't pan out.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Do not egyptians read, do they not have access to international news? Could they and the Tunisians have gotten their inspiration from the Rose revolution, the orange revolution or the Tulip revolution. All of which involved peacefull protests leading to the fall of dictatorships. Rather then the US invasion of Iraq. Or do you feel Arabic people can only find inspiration from other arabs. Could they not see the sucess that Turkey is enjoying and seek to follow Turkish democracy?

Just to note the US (and George Soros) played large roles in the Rose, and Orange revolutions (and probably the Tulip one as well)
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What an absolute joke. To cling to your sophomoric protests and utter lack of vision, you prefer to pretend that the greatest disruption in Arab status quo in the heartland of the Sunni tribe had nothing to do with it. Or that long ago revolutions in Turkey have sparked off Tunisia when they have Iraq's recent historical events happening directly within their same region? You actually prefer to use revolutions as far away as possible from this civilization, which shares the very unifying religion of Islam and social oppression, to be what has inspired the greatest regional cry for democracy in history? Why don't we use the American Revolution while we are at this game of Iraq denial.

Just stop.
 
MSgt said:
What an absolute joke. To cling to your sophomoric protests and utter lack of vision, you prefer to pretend that the greatest disruption in Arab status quo in the heartland of the Sunni tribe had nothing to do with it. Or that long ago revolutions in Turkey have sparked off Tunisia when they have Iraq's recent historical events happening directly within their same region? You actually prefer to use revolutions as far away as possible from this civilization, which shares the very unifying religion of Islam and social oppression, to be what has inspired the greatest regional cry for democracy in history? Why don't we use the American Revolution while we are at this game of Iraq denial.

Just stop.
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Iraq is the heartland of Sunni Arabs?

A country of 24 million, 60% of which are Shia Arab, 20% are Kurds (predoiminately sunni) leaving about 20% being sunni arabs.

This claim has got to be a joke is it not. Egypt has the largest arabic population, with over 80% being Sunni. Saudi Arabia is the homeland of Islam.

Georgia is geographically closer to Iraq then is Tunisia, and is just a few hundred km further from Iraq then is Egypt.

You have Turkey being a democracy ( predominately a sunni islam country)
You have Malaysia being an imperfect democracy with 60% or so being muslim
You have Indonesia having the largest muslim population and is a democracy

Egyptians and Tunisians are not morons who can only take inspiration from other Sunni Arabic states. They can read, they can travel they can take inspiration from what occurs in Georgia, the Ukraine, they can see how well Turkey is doing, they can aspire to have what Turkey has, what Georgia has done, or the Ukraine or Kyrgistan for that matter

After all what occured in Tunisia, and Egypt are far more similar to what occured in Georgia and Ukraine then to what happened in Iraq. Large peacefull protests leading to authoritarian dictatorships being removed from power. Rather different then a foreign military invading, leading to mass chaos, death and displacement


To add

The only part Iraq played in the events of Egypt is that for the US to have come out in support of Mubarak, it would have publically shown the US being hypocritical in its "promotion" of democracy
 
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MSgt said:
....and? Arabs don't have to occupy. Their status quo is to breed the religious terrorism that encourages other nations to have to protect themselves.
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We kill far more people with far better weapons. I don't get the fear. Sorry.


Were it not for 9/11 there would be no occupation in Afghanistan and Iraq
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.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, it just a convenient excuse to install a government that would once again let Western oil back in Iraq.

Were there no Iraqi invasion into Kuwait, there would be no occupation of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. But in the end, all of these governments welcome us to certain extent
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s.

Of course they threatened oil spigots that we are dependent upon. The Gulf war and ten years of sanctions eliminated that threat. Now what was the recent Iraq war for again?


We have left Iraq
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We have? That's odd because when my son left there 2 weeks ago, he said there are still 35,000 combat ready troops there.


We will leave Afghanistan.
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Yeah, well we've saying that for about the last decade now.

Your refernce inplies that the Gulf War and 9/11 didn't happen
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.

The Gulf war ended any military threat by Iraq and Iraq didn't have any involvement in 9/11.

See the Pentagon/CIA reports.

Your statement implies that the Gulf WaThat America simply decided over night to send its evil military out to slaughter people for the hell of it.
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Not at all, we were protecting one of the sources of our dependency.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Iraq is the heartland of Sunni Arabs?
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Yes...it is. Let's not avoid the mass of the point so that you can preserve a sense of wisdom for yourself. Baghdad was the seat of the Sunni caliphate for centuries after the short stint of Meccan locality. It is a very important city to Islam and this makes Iraq a part of the heartland. Breaking down a percentage of population does nothing to avoid the truth. Anbdthefact that you clued in on such a siumple google check in order to use a number to identify the cultural theme is sophomoric.

I think I'm finished entertaining you.

Lord Tammerlain said:
This claim has got to be a joke is it not. Egypt has the largest arabic population, with over 80% being Sunni. Saudi Arabia is the homeland of Islam.

Georgia is geographically closer to Iraq then is Tunisia, and is just a few hundred km further from Iraq then is Egypt.
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Yes...a joke. Can you not see the desparation in your continued stubborness? I'm sure most everyone else can. You are resorting to population percentages and geographical distances in order to avoid culture. You are completely avoiding the culture of the region, which is absolutely everything. It has always been everytihng. To suggest that revolutions in 2003 (Georgia) mattered to Egypt, while the birth of democracy within the region in 2003 (Iraq) did not is criminal. I gave you plenty of evidence out of the mouths of Muslims throughout the region since Iraq. I have shown you historic social changes that occurred only after the heartland of Islam got placed on an alternate path. Still....you seek to deny by producing desparate revolutions far outside the Islamic civilization of the Middle East. First we pretend that Egyptians and Tunisians have no way toview their region. When this fails, we pretend that anything but Iraq served as motivator. This is absolutely pathetic.

I think I'm finished entertaining you.
 
MSgt said:
Yes...it is. Let's not avoid the mass of the point so that you can preserve a sense of wisdom for yourself. Baghdad was the seat of the Sunni caliphate for centuries after the short stint of Meccan locality. It is a very important city to Islam and this makes Iraq a part of the heartland. Breaking down a percentage of population does nothing to avoid the truth. Anbdthefact that you clued in on such a siumple google check in order to use a number to identify the cultural theme is sophomoric.

I think I'm finished entertaining you.



Yes...a joke. Can you not see the desparation in your continued stubborness? I'm sure most everyone else can. You are resorting to population percentages and geographical distances in order to avoid culture. You are completely avoiding the culture of the region, which is absolutely everything. It has always been everytihng. To suggest that revolutions in 2003 (Georgia) mattered to Egypt, while the birth of democracy within the region in 2003 (Iraq) did not is criminal. I gave you plenty of evidence out of the mouths of Muslims throughout the region since Iraq. I have shown you historic social changes that occurred only after the heartland of Islam got placed on an alternate path. Still....you seek to deny by producing desparate revolutions far outside the Islamic civilization of the Middle East. First we pretend that Egyptians and Tunisians have no way toview their region. When this fails, we pretend that anything but Iraq served as motivator. This is absolutely pathetic.

I think I'm finished entertaining you.
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And I showed that Algeria had an election in the 90s that was open and relatively free yet thrown out by the government leading to a long brutal civil war.

What I am showing is that claims that Iraq was the motivator, as opposed to all other potential motivators or inspriations is a feel good issue for those that supported the invasion of Iraq. Egyptians took to the streets after they saw what happened in Tunisia. A dictator fled after some rather mild street protests. They did not take to the streets in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010. Only after a Tunisian man set himself on fire did Tunisians go to the streets, only after the Tunisians dictator flee, did Egyptians think the same could occur in Egypt. To use Iraq as the insprirations certainly allows the same probability that Georgia. the Ukrain and Kyrgistan were the inspiration for peacefull protests leading to the collapse of dictatorships. Especially among more secular minded Tunisians and Egyptians
 
Catawba said:
We kill far more people with far better weapons. I don't get the fear. Sorry.
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Well you don't have to get it.

Catawba said:
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11,......
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Ha. It's protestor 101 anymore. Apparently, Mr. Osama Bin Laden thought it did which is why he wrote it into his letter of justification for 9/11. Iraq was never aboutonly Iraq. It was aboutthe region. and it is this uneducated region that breeds religious radicalism and extremism.

Catawba said:
We have? That's odd because when my son left there 2 weeks ago, he said there are still 35,000 combat ready troops there.
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Oh you mean the barest amount of "soldiers." Not Marines. And without Marines, there is no real combat. What is left is not in combat and most of them aren't even combatants. They are merely insurance until most of them leave too. Unless you are trying to use the sophomoric's attempt to be "right?" Iraq belongs to Iraq. We no longer control it. I believe I told you this before. You may as well whine about our troops in Germany or Okinawa or South Korea or Kuwait. We are finished with Iraq.



Catawba said:
Yeah, well we've saying that for about the last decade now.
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We have not had focus on Afghainstan for 10 years. The Marines have left Iraq and are now focused on Afghanistan. Give it time. In the last year, Afghanistan programs have exponentially improved. Besides, is there something about the American history you don't get? How many stars do we have on our flag? We don't conquer and add stars. We don't consume and assimilate. We have never kept any land abroad after we controlled it. We have always given it back. Any bases are at the bequest of the local government and when the contracts expire we either re-new or leave.

Catawba said:
The Gulf war ended any military threat by Iraq and Iraq didn't have any involvement in 9/11.
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Like I stated, Iraq was about the region..not just about Iraq. More sophomoric protestor 101.

Catawba said:
Not at all, we were protecting one of the sources of our dependency.
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More sophomoric protestor 101. Despite your use of oil products throughout your life, there is more to this region besides oil. But of course, if you still need simple answers to a complex issue.....
 
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Lord Tammerlain said:
And I showed that Algeria had an election in the 90s that was open and relatively free yet thrown out by the government leading to a long brutal civil war.

What I am showing is that claims that Iraq was the motivator, as opposed to all other potential motivators or inspriations is a feel good issue for those that supported the invasion of Iraq. Egyptians took to the streets after they saw what happened in Tunisia. A dictator fled after some rather mild street protests. They did not take to the streets in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010. Only after a Tunisian man set himself on fire did Tunisians go to the streets, only after the Tunisians dictator flee, did Egyptians think the same could occur in Egypt. To use Iraq as the insprirations certainly allows the same probability that Georgia. the Ukrain and Kyrgistan were the inspiration for peacefull protests leading to the collapse of dictatorships. Especially among more secular minded Tunisians and Egyptians
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You are obvious in your denials. Not only do you deny the truth that you know you see, but you deny the sentiments of regional Arabs I have produced foryou. Focusing soley on Tunisia, with absolute disregard to what had been going on in the region since 2003, is laughable. By all means, let's find an event in East Asia while we are at this game of denial of the biggest social changes within the Islamic heartland since 2003.
 
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MSgt said:
Once again, I bring up Jordan. We deliver aid to this country's government as well. King Abdul II has been trying to give more and more power to the people and they have refused. No American aid is preventing anything. The regional habit to blame the West, especially America, 60 years after the "era of independence," is tired and rediculous.
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MSgt, I truly hope that you continue to make the obvious (to some) and compelling case that the Invasion and Liberation of Iraq was always about the region and that it has set the stage for the events unfolding now. I will do the same. Although we are just on a debate board, I still feel it is important to try and reach people on the left. Hopefully some of their minds will be changed and they can object in turn to their friends.

It is absolutely infuriating to me that the Liberals and Socialists and Democrats and Leftists turned against the war because of no WMDs found and completely discarded the core objective of liberating Iraq and helping them create a Democracy as the THIRD WAY in Middle East politics, to provide an alternative to autocracy and theocracy. These Leftists hoped to score cheap political points against what they considered an "illegitimate" president and thus broke a cardinal rule of American Foreign Policy: "leave your politics at the shoreline". In order to score these cheap political points, they objected to the concept of using force to spread Democracy. The reality and regional history, as you point out, is that 60 years post WW II was not enough time for them to revolt internally. They needed the example of Iraq. Finally, in the end, post 9/11 reality demanded that it was our DUTY as superpower in the world to do so.

These days, I am also infuriated, although not nearly to the same degree as my infuriation with the Left for their hypocrisy and violation of their own principles of freedom for all, with the Right and the Right's cynicism with events in Egypt. All of this concern about a replication of the Iranian Revolution with the Muslim Brotherhood rising to power, totally misses the mark. A new force has risen in the Middle East, and no one saw it coming? ;) It is taking them by storm. The entire Egyptian Revolution was started by educated youths over the internet and its objective was the acquisition of human rights from an autocratic regime it must overthrow. There is NO WAY the MB will be able to take this from the moderates of Egypt. The Middle East is changed forever because of the invasion of Iraq. A job well done, sir!

Now, the whole reason I am responding to your post, I did get a little carried away above, is your statement that King Abdul II has been trying to give more and more power to the people and I was peripherally aware of that and his liberal intentions. But you say that the Jordanians have REFUSED? What is that all about?
 
MSgt said:
Ha. It's protestor 101 anymore. Apparently, Mr. Osama Bin Laden thought it did which is why he wrote it into his letter of justification for 9/11. Iraq was never aboutonly Iraq. It was aboutthe region. and it is this uneducated region that breeds religious radicalism and extremism.
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That's some twisted logic right there! BTW, shouldn't we get back to the thread topic?
 
Catawba said:
That's some twisted logic right there! BTW, shouldn't we get back to the thread topic?
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It is on the thread topic. The protests in Egypt is an evolution of the Arab psyche toward democracy and freedom and the acquisition of human rights because of our liberation of Iraq.
 
reefedjib said:
It is on the thread topic. The protests in Egypt is an evolution of the Arab psyche toward democracy and freedom and the acquisition of human rights because of our liberation of Iraq.
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Now that made me laugh!!! Thanks, I needed that. Lord Tammerlain and others have pointed out very well how absurd that is.
 
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MSgt said:
PART 1 of 2

For Tamarlain and all others who refuse to be humble after the fact. Here is clear evidence that Arabs voting for the laws that would govern them for the first time in history in Iraq was key to what you see on your electronic box of "wisdom" today....
.
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It's utterly bizarre that somebody would consider this (and part 2) as evidence that there is a primarily causal link between Iraq and what's happening now. And again, you indulge in hypocrisy stating that Arabs influenced Persians (the single freedom-seeking individual in your list that made a connection), yet Persians and Turks (or anyone else) couldn't influence Arabs. Please be consistent.
 
reefedjib said:
MSgt, I truly hope that you continue to make the obvious (to some) and compelling case that the Invasion and Liberation of Iraq was always about the region and that it has set the stage for the events unfolding now. I will do the same.
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It's coming down to people who are either...

1) ... realizing the greater impact and letting it go

or

2) ... are so satisfied with their traditional negativity, protests, and ignorance, that they prefer to cook up everything and anything to avoid what they know. I've not seen as desparate as trying to give credit to revolution in Georgia though.



reefedjib said:
Now, the whole reason I am responding to your post, I did get a little carried away above, is your statement that King Abdul II has been trying to give more and more power to the people and I was peripherally aware of that and his liberal intentions. But you say that the Jordanians have REFUSED? What is that all about?
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King Abdulah II has been trying to impliment government change that would give his throne less power and the people's representation more. Jordan is largely a Palestinian state and as such are very focused on things going on outside their country between "Palestine" and Israel. This is also the country that hosted "Black September." He has been having trouble getting the people and their political groups to transcend their religious organizations. Many prefer religious theocracy and see democracy as a perversion and a tool in which to deny religious rule (they are right). Zarqawi slaughtering Muslims in Jordan in 2005? (I believe) went a long way to discredit Al-Queda in the eyes of Jodans, but they are traditional in their religious rhetorics in regards to the Palestinian/Israeli issue. The political parties tend to be extreme right, which scares the King's idea for Jordan's future.
 
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MSgt said:
It's fact. You may read his letter. It was addressed to you.
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I have read his fatwa and I interpret it differently that you.
 
Catawba said:
I have read his fatwa and I interpret it differently that you.
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I'm sure you did. I guess you missed the part about the UN mission and the "starving children of Iraq." Most protestors do. But the rest of Osama Bin Laden's words are to be swallowed and appreciated.
 
Ben K. said:
It's utterly bizarre that somebody would consider this (and part 2) as evidence that there is a primarily causal link between Iraq and what's happening now. And again, you indulge in hypocrisy stating that Arabs influenced Persians (the single freedom-seeking individual in your list that made a connection), yet Persians and Turks (or anyone else) couldn't influence Arabs. Please be consistent.
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Understand the culture and then preach about what you consider consistent.

Persians (converts) are not Sunni. Turks (converts), though influenced by Sunni, are not Arabs. Iran is seperate from the rest and will have little influenceon what Sunni Arab populations do. And with the Ottoman's abolishing the caliphate in the 1920s, I would think you would move on from the idea that they inspired anything in the Arab world. Recent history has been recorded in phases....

1) The "Era of Independence" saw these nations freed from colonial powers. This was facilitated by Europe's inability to sustain their long arm in the 1950s after WWII. The common theme amongst all Arab nations was military coup.

2) The end of the Cold War saw the Soviet Union and America release their grips on these nations all over the world. For a brief period, we simply looked away. The 9/11 happened. With Tunisia, we see the dominoes falling. Was this facilitated by Saudi Arabia who allowed low level elections for Muslims for the first time in history in 2005? Or was it facilitated by Iraqis who were the first Arabs in history to vote on the laws that would govern them on international television in 2005 and then again in 2010? Is democracy yet another common theme amongst Arab nations today? What will this era be labeled?

You may wish to believe Tammarlain's notion that a culture far removed from the Muslim world and definately from the Arab world inspired them from Georgia's activities in 2003. Or you may prefer to acknowledge that all these Arab populations are seeing each other, but Iraq sits in a bubble that can't be seen. Or that an Iranian activist was the only Muslim in the region tuning in. What is bizarre is how stubborn the lot of you are and how easily you can dismiss the fact that their inspiration came from whithin their own culture. With all of the West proving the potential of healthy democracy for centuries, nothing in the Arab world was inspired until Iraqis voted within their own culture and proved it possible.
 
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MSgt said:
Understand the culture and then preach about what you consider consistent.

Persians (converts) are not Sunni. Turks (converts), though influenced by Sunni, are not Arabs. Iran is seperate from the rest and will have little influenceon what Sunni Arab populations do. And with the Ottoman's abolishing the caliphate in the 1920s, I would think you would move on from the idea that they inspired anything in the Arab world. Recent history has been recorded in phases....

1) The "Era of Independence" saw these nations freed from colonial powers. This was facilitated by Europe's inability to sustain their long arm in the 1950s after WWII. The common theme amongst all Arab nations was military coup.

2) The end of the Cold War saw the Soviet Union and America release their grips on these nations all over the world. For a brief period, we simply looked away. The 9/11 happened. With Tunisia, we see the dominoes falling. Was this facilitated by Saudi Arabia who allowed low level elections for Muslims for the first time in history in 2005? Or was it facilitated by Iraqis who were the first Arabs in history to vote on the laws that would govern them on international television in 2005 and then again in 2010? Is democracy yet another common theme amongst Arab nations today? What will this era be labeled?
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Iraq was not the first, Algeria was in the early 90s. Lebanon has also been a country that has had elections that have had a direct result on who governs the country. Although the sectarian nature of which sect gets which position is rather flawed.




You may wish to believe Tammarlain's notion that a culture far removed from the Muslim world and definately from the Arab world inspired them from Georgia's activities in 2003. Or you may prefer to acknowledge that all these Arab populations are seeing each other, but Iraq sits in a bubble that can't be seen. Or that an Iranian activist was the only Muslim in the region tuning in. What is bizarre is how stubborn the lot of you are and how easily you can dismiss the fact that their inspiration came from whithin their own culture. With all of the West proving the potential of healthy democracy for centuries, nothing in the Arab world was inspired until Iraqis voted within their own culture and proved it possible.
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You may believe that Arabs are closed minded people who do not pay attention to the rest of the world, but only to other Arabic countries. But I respect people greater then that. I believe Arabs can seek inspiration from other cultures other countries and other people rather then just othe Arabs. You see arabs do have access to computers, to books to television to the radio. They can see what happens in other countries, other cultures and societies and seek to emulate them or seek to change on their own without inspiration from other arabic countries or other cultures period. They are not simple minded parrots who can only see what happens in Iraq or Saudi Arabia and emulate what happens there.


To state that arabs would only seek inspiration from other arabic countries is to state that the Chinese will never seek democracy because no chinese country is democratic (ethnic han being a far larger demographic then ethnic arabs)
 
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MSgt said:
I'm sure you did. I guess you missed the part about the UN mission and the "starving children of Iraq." Most protestors do. But the rest of Osama Bin Laden's words are to be swallowed and appreciated.
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Miss it? Most of the humane world was complaining about it, myself included. Did you miss the part where he said he would not defeat America on the battlefield but we would lose by depleting our resources trying to win a war that can't be won? How do you win a war against your own fear?
 
Ben K. said:
It's utterly bizarre that somebody would consider this (and part 2) as evidence that there is a primarily causal link between Iraq and what's happening now. And again, you indulge in hypocrisy stating that Arabs influenced Persians (the single freedom-seeking individual in your list that made a connection), yet Persians and Turks (or anyone else) couldn't influence Arabs. Please be consistent.
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People are working so hard to give credit for Egypt's revolution to Obama, that there's no way they can ever admit that IRaq had anything to do with it.
 
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