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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

mbig said:
Hey Cat! Hope you're well
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I am doing well my friend, hope you are too!

Due to the backwardness/stagnation of Muslim cultures over the last 500-1000 years, they're 'armies' really aren't capable of any International deployment!
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That is why they are of little threat to us.
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Not there hasn't been grotesque killing in the name of Islam in places like Sudan (especially Genocide I, pre-Darfur) and places like East Timor.
And war and repression over virtually the whole 'Islamic Front Line' from Mauritania to Mindinao. (pak/India, Armena/Azerbijan, etc) see my last post.
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We've done our share of killing as well through history and we kill more people in other countries than any other I can think of in recent history. Don't forget wee are the only country ever to use nuclear weapons on civilians.

And the 'Christian Armies' you speak of are Not acting in the name of Christianity.
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Then why do all the presidents say, may God go with you, before we send our troops off to kill others?
 
Catawba said:
And yet it has been the Christian Armies, not the Muslim Armies that are setting up military occupations in other countries all over the world, and we do it with God on our side I am told.
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The Muslims were doing it as much and probably before the Christians.
 
apdst said:
The Muslims were doing it as much and probably before the Christians.
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My concern is about what's happening in my lifetime.
 
I'm gobsmacked. I do not know how anyone could have watched the hours and hours of jubilation, the tears of sheer joy, on the faces of those Egyptians, who for the first time in the living memory of many have the chance for freedom and democracy... and their only thought is, "Crap, the cost of MY gas is going up."

I mean, really? That's all it meant to you?

Well, it meant a hell of a lot more to the Egyptians, who have been ruled by Martial Law for 30 years, had friends and loved ones "disappear" at the hands of secret police, never to be seen again, who bear the marks of torture on their own bodies, who were willing to die just for the chance to have the kind of freedoms that most people on this forum were born with, and take completely for granted.

I cried when I watched the joy in the streets. I'm not stupid, I know that there may be so many pitfalls ahead. This hasn't been done in Egypt before, so there will be baby steps, stumbles and falls. But my god, people. A peaceful protest taking place in every major city in Egypt couldn't be brought down by violence, couldn't be brought down by deaths, couldn't be brought down by threats... and they succeeded. For this glorious moment, they have dignity, they have honor... they have a chance.

And all some of you can think about is how this might affect you. Aren't we just the compassionate bastion of liberty?

I need a shower.
 
Catawba said:
And yet it has been the Christian Armies, not the Muslim Armies that are setting up military occupations in other countries all over the world, and we do it with God on our side I am told.
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Is that what you were told?

By whom?
 
DiAnna said:
I'm gobsmacked. I do not know how anyone could have watched the hours and hours of jubilation, the tears of sheer joy, on the faces of those Egyptians, who for the first time in the living memory of many have the chance for freedom and democracy... and their only thought is, "Crap, the cost of MY gas is going up."

I mean, really? That's all it meant to you?

Well, it meant a hell of a lot more to the Egyptians, who have been ruled by Martial Law for 30 years, had friends and loved ones "disappear" at the hands of secret police, never to be seen again, who bear the marks of torture on their own bodies, who were willing to die just for the chance to have the kind of freedoms that most people on this forum were born with, and take completely for granted.

I cried when I watched the joy in the streets. I'm not stupid, I know that there may be so many pitfalls ahead. This hasn't been done in Egypt before, so there will be baby steps, stumbles and falls. But my god, people. A peaceful protest taking place in every major city in Egypt couldn't be brought down by violence, couldn't be brought down by deaths, couldn't be brought down by threats... and they succeeded. For this glorious moment, they have dignity, they have honor... they have a chance.

And all some of you can think about is how this might affect you. Aren't we just the compassionate bastion of liberty?

I need a shower.
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I think your misreading the response, DiAnna, and you shouldn't be put off by a couple of comments. Everyone I've heard speak of this momentous event has been very happy with the results and that it was done relatively peacefully and with a more than a little dignity when considering it was a large protest.

We all hope the best for the Egyptian people, I'm sure, and that democracy and freedom will spread throughout the Middle East, and indeed the world.
 
Grant said:
Is that what you were told?

By whom?
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You name the countries occupied by military forces that go with Allah and I'll name the countries occupied by military forces that go with God.
 
Catawba said:
You name the countries occupied by military forces that go with Allah and I'll name the countries occupied by military forces that go with God.
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Actually that's not the way it works.

You made a claim and you should support it. If you can't support it you just back off as gracefully as you can, which is clearly what you should do here..
 
Grant said:
Actually that's not the way it works.

You made a claim and you should support it. If you can't support it you just back off as gracefully as you can, which is clearly what you should do here..
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Yes, actually it is the way it works. I originally said, "And yet it has been the Christian Armies, not the Muslim Armies that are setting up military occupations in other countries all over the world, and we do it with God on our side I am told."

Then you said, "Is that what you were told?

By whom?"
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Then I said, "You name the countries occupied by military forces that go with Allah and I'll name the countries occupied by military forces that go with God."


Which brings us back to the point where you have not listed any foreign military occupation by Muslim countries.
 
Catawba said:
You name the countries occupied by military forces that go with Allah and I'll name the countries occupied by military forces that go with God.
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Are you needing history to be recent or all encompassing? You see, it was Islam's Arab armies that exploded out of the peninsula. With the first caliphate, Islam's army found itself at war with the Persian and the Byzantine (Christian) Empires. It was Arabs that first colonized and occupied Christian lands and forced their culture upon others as as far east as Afghanistan, as north as the Balkans, and across northern Africa and into Spain. And the Crusades? Weren't Christian armies merely seeking to regain lost land? And did not Islam's Ottoman army conquer and occupy most of Europe for a thousand years after? And when Europe finally fought back, were they not just recapturing lost land. We tend to label this era "Western Imperialism," but the title is very self flaggelating and pathetic. It's at this point that we like to produce European colonialism as if these local tribes weren't already confused about religion, local identity, and independence.

The fact is that Allah has caused plenty of damage and his armies have occupied far more vast territory as an empire than any of God's armies. But.......if you need history to start with "Western Imperialism" or even the year 1991 when an occupying Muslim military had to get kicked out of Kuwait by the dastardly Christian Army, then you may go ahead and pretend that the West, especially America, is the scourge of the earth.

Foolish.
 
Catawba said:
My concern is about what's happening in my lifetime.
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Well, this allows you your shallow outlook and self flaggelation episodes, doesn't it? If you don't concern yourself with the history of these issues, then you will always miss the mark and deny yourself clarity.
 
MSgt, what's your take on yesterday's events in Egypt? What does your crystal ball suggest to you as likely?
 
Catawba said:
Then why do all the presidents say, may God go with you, before we send our troops off to kill others?
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Tradition? Besides, "God" is in all religions and such sentiment is mere tradition. You think the Muslim soldier thinks of the Christian God when he hears such a thing? Or does he think of his "God?" Or the Jewish soldier? Or the Athiest?

"In God We Trust" is on our money too. Is our money Christian money? Is God only in Christianity?

You see, Islamic warriors or Muslim armies are all absolutely 100 percent Muslim. This is unlike the militaries of the West (which you ignorantly portray as Christian). They are made up of all the religions. Try as you may, the wars between the Crescent and the Cross is entirely in the past. Today we see the wars between the Crescent and the West.

Why do you insist on stating such ignorant near sighted remarks like this? Does it make the enemy less present to drag your own culture through the gutter? All you do is deny our enemy their culture and identity, while exaggerating the evils of your own.
 
reefedjib said:
MSgt, what's your take on yesterday's events in Egypt? What does your crystal ball suggest to you as likely?
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Post 402 in this thread - January 30 -

Thanks to the US, the Egyptian military is more proffessional than the rest and they can be a very valuable tool in dealing with Egypt's future. Their refusal to simply turn violent upon their own people should say something.
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I stated this 14 days ago while the commentators (known as "experts") on TV were focusing on whether or not to support the Egyptian people. I also remarked on the true long term security of America being dependent on foriegn democracies while these same "experts" began looking at short term scares like rising oil prices or the Muslim Brotherhood or Iran part II. You would think these "experts" preferred the dictator and his short term guarantee of "stability" (Cold War tactics) over long term security.

The Egytpian Army was always key, long before these "experts" found it fashionable and safe to say so. Many of their officers have attended War Colleges here in America. They hosted Operation Brightstar every two years, which brought Arab and Western militaries together for exercises (In 2001, the Marines got in trouble for not letting the Egyptians win the scenario). We fund and modernize the Egyptian military. We have shaped their military culture for decades, especially over the last 20 years. Ourmilitary leaders have close relationships with their military leaders. None of this is going to go away so that Egypt can create a religious theocracy.

If we were to look at Egypt's history, we can see that not only did Egypt have a written history prior to Islam (Turkey and Iran as others), but it also had as loud a voice for democracy at the beginning of European colonialism as it did for Islamic law. Well, Islamic Law (and religious government) has proven to be incompatible to successful unrestrained modernization and the Nasser "monarchy" proved that secular dictatorship is unacceptable. Egyptians have seen what Sharia did for the abused and slaughtered Sudanese. They have seen Iraq vote and vote again as they get stronger and stronger. They have seen Iranian government oppress their people through religion. They have seen the religiously and socially freest Muslims in the region living in Israel.

Democracy is exactly what Egypt is heading into. This is the natural phase for Egyptians. The Muslim Brotherhood will have seats and influence and the ability to survive, but religious monsters have no power where people have the ability to build modern free society.

It's all in the books. People are too quick to look for the current event or the reporter to deliver them wisdom. Often enough, it's this short sighted behavior that blinds us to the probabilities as we act like "nobody could have known" after the fact. It's intellectual laziness to predict safe things or to focus on sensational headlines. Washington is full of these types and so is the media.
 
MSgt said:
I stated this 14 days ago while the commentators (known as "experts") on TV were focusing on whether or not to support the Egyptian people. I also remarked on the true long term security of America being dependent on foriegn democracies while these same "experts" began looking at short term scares like rising oil prices or the Muslim Brotherhood or Iran part II. You would think these "experts" preferred the dictator and his short term guarantee of "stability" (Cold War tactics) over long term security.

The Egytpian Army was always key, long before these "experts" found it fashionable and safe to say so. Many of their officers have attended War Colleges here in America. They hosted Operation Brightstar every two years, which brought Arab and Western militaries together for exercises (In 2001, the Marines got in trouble for not letting the Egyptians win the scenario). We fund and modernize the Egyptian military. We have shaped their military culture for decades, especially over the last 20 years. Ourmilitary leaders have close relationships with their military leaders. None of this is going to go away so that Egypt can create a religious theocracy.

If we were to look at Egypt's history, we can see that not only did Egypt have a written history prior to Islam (Turkey and Iran as others), but it also had as loud a voice for democracy at the beginning of European colonialism as it did for Islamic law. Well, Islamic Law (and religious government) has proven to be incompatible to successful unrestrained modernization and the Nasser "monarchy" proved that secular dictatorship is unacceptable. Egyptians have seen what Sharia did for the abused and slaughtered Sudanese. They have seen Iraq vote and vote again as they get stronger and stronger. They have seen Iranian government oppress their people through religion. They have seen the religiously and socially freest Muslims in the region living in Israel.

Democracy is exactly what Egypt is heading into. This is the natural phase for Egyptians. The Muslim Brotherhood will have seats and influence and the ability to survive, but religious monsters have no power where people have the ability to build modern free society.

It's all in the books. People are too quick to look for the current event or the reporter to deliver them wisdom. Often enough, it's this short sighted behavior that blinds us to the probabilities as we act like "nobody could have known" after the fact. It's intellectual laziness to predict safe things or to focus on sensational headlines. Washington is full of these types and so is the media.
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The only thing that concerns me is the wide-ranging business interests that officers in the Egyptian military hold. And I don't think it is merely mid-level officers that hold them. They will not be interested in any threat to that.

Turkey provides a fine example of mixing democracy and Islam. Here comes the Neo-Ottoman empire... ;)

EDIT: Ok, ok, it's not the only thing that concerns me. It is a fragile moment. I'm am an optimist about it. It's not like the Ukraine with Russia next door influencing half your population against the revolution. Egypt is the regional powerhouse.
 
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Here is what you said.

Catawba said:
"And yet it has been the Christian Armies, not the Muslim Armies that are setting up military occupations in other countries all over the world, and we do it with God on our side I am told."
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Now who told you that "Christian Armies are setting up military occupations all over the world with God on our side".

That's straightforward enough and does not involve Muslims whatsoever.

Where are these "Christian Armies".
 
MSgt said:
I stated this 14 days ago while the commentators (known as "experts") on TV were focusing on whether or not to support the Egyptian people. I also remarked on the true long term security of America being dependent on foriegn democracies while these same "experts" began looking at short term scares like rising oil prices or the Muslim Brotherhood or Iran part II. You would think these "experts" preferred the dictator and his short term guarantee of "stability" (Cold War tactics) over long term security.

The Egytpian Army was always key, long before these "experts" found it fashionable and safe to say so. Many of their officers have attended War Colleges here in America. They hosted Operation Brightstar every two years, which brought Arab and Western militaries together for exercises (In 2001, the Marines got in trouble for not letting the Egyptians win the scenario). We fund and modernize the Egyptian military. We have shaped their military culture for decades, especially over the last 20 years. Ourmilitary leaders have close relationships with their military leaders. None of this is going to go away so that Egypt can create a religious theocracy.

If we were to look at Egypt's history, we can see that not only did Egypt have a written history prior to Islam (Turkey and Iran as others), but it also had as loud a voice for democracy at the beginning of European colonialism as it did for Islamic law. Well, Islamic Law (and religious government) has proven to be incompatible to successful unrestrained modernization and the Nasser "monarchy" proved that secular dictatorship is unacceptable. Egyptians have seen what Sharia did for the abused and slaughtered Sudanese. They have seen Iraq vote and vote again as they get stronger and stronger. They have seen Iranian government oppress their people through religion. They have seen the religiously and socially freest Muslims in the region living in Israel.

Democracy is exactly what Egypt is heading into. This is the natural phase for Egyptians. The Muslim Brotherhood will have seats and influence and the ability to survive, but religious monsters have no power where people have the ability to build modern free society.

It's all in the books. People are too quick to look for the current event or the reporter to deliver them wisdom. Often enough, it's this short sighted behavior that blinds us to the probabilities as we act like "nobody could have known" after the fact. It's intellectual laziness to predict safe things or to focus on sensational headlines. Washington is full of these types and so is the media.
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I recall that post and was skeptical of your rosy outlook and prediction but it seems you were right and I was wrong, at least so far. I hope you continue to be right and that democracy does spread throughout the Middle East.

If it does it seems clear that much of the credit belongs to George Bush and his Operation Iraqi Freedom as well as his Operation Enduring Freedom campaigns.

While he won't get the credit any time soon, the Left will see to that, history will no doubt judge him kindly, particularly in the Middle East.
 
reefedjib said:
Turkey provides a fine example of mixing democracy and Islam. Here comes the Neo-Ottoman empire... ;)
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I believe Egypt will surpass Turkey in this regard. Turks were converts to Islam at the end of the Crusades (which is what sealed Christian defeat). Converts tend to have something to prove and since this is the place where 1400 years of the caliphate was abolished, they will strugle between Islam and government for some time.


reefedjib said:
Egypt is the regional powerhouse.
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Which is why I believe that it will change the region and the world to the positive. The caliphates resided in Baghdad and Cairo for a very long time before they lived in Istanbul. It was the Sunni elders of Mecca that sabotaged Islam once they lost their position on the throne. The so called "Golden Age" of Islam came to an end because Sunni elders decided it so. Ottoman Sultans were denied their attempts to modernize Islam and the region by Sunni elders on the Arabian peninsula repeatedly. Nasser of Egypt was secular and sought to separate Islam from government in Egyptians loved him. Sunni elders on the Arabian peninsula still seek to influence the region's Arabs and we can see this with the waves of Arabs into Iraq to kill Shia and western inspired democracy as well as the streak of radicalism in Egypt and others. But modernization, globalization, and the advent of communication technology has had a far greater influence on people than the religious figure who themes around hatred, racism, and persecution.

Islam's future is now being determined before our very eyes by Istanbul, Baghdad, and now Cairo. Mecca is even more bitter, old, and stale than ever before.
 
Catawba said:
You name the countries occupied by military forces that go with Allah and I'll name the countries occupied by military forces that go with God.
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Spain, France, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia, Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Serbia, Romania, Hungary, Albania, Slovenia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, Yemen, Somalia, Oman, Kuwait, Syria, Jordon, Israel, India, Gerogia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Turkmenistan, Azerbijan, Usbekistan, England, Canada, The United States have all come under atttack/been occupied by force by militant Muslim forces.

This is Islam's history. Know, love it, live it.
 
Grant said:
I recall that post and was skeptical of your rosy outlook and prediction but it seems you were right and I was wrong, at least so far. I hope you continue to be right and that democracy does spread throughout the Middle East.
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It's all in the history. For one, Democracy is the natural course for every single culture on earth. This Arab Middle East cannot be an exception. A reformation within Islam and they are like the rest of us. Hell, the first caliphate was democratically elected at a time when the Shia demanded blood line monarcy. Since mid 20th century, Iran (Shia) had been experimenting with democracy while it was the Arab governments (Sunni) embraced secular dictatorship. This has been changing since the invasion into Iraq in 2003. And second, democracy in Egypt has been a theme since Muhammad Ali (early 19th century). He modernized Egypt and westernized it as best he could. Despite his dynasty being a string of dictators, the people underneath began to lean towards democracy (Western influence) and religious radicalism (Meccan influence). When his dynasty passed to the Nasser dynasty in 1952, the same themes existed. However, both were willing trust in Nasser. Almost 60 years later, the screams from both side have become louder. The media and their "experts" will have you believe that it is the radical voice that controls the winds of change. But this is not true. Strength belongs to the democratic side. One may wonder what side would have the strength had Iraqis not served as examples or the absence of the Internet. If America can't get away with what it used to, because the entire world has the capacity and technology to pay attention, what does this mean for corrupt Arab leaders? You think they can get away with religious oppression or using "foriegn devils" to excuse their local behaviors and prescriptions anymore?


The key to Islam's future is Istanbul, Baghdad, and Cairo. Shall we go out on a limb and forecast an eventual Tehran? Now I don't mean to imply that utopia or Vermont in the desert is one vote away. We have to be practical. After all, it even took the high and mighty French some 70 years to get to the other side of their experiment. But we should also appreciate that others of us have gone through the unknowns of democracy when nothing served as an example. Today, the world is quite familiar with the recipes. Iraq now holds the record for building a democracy (formerly it was the Dutch) and the rest of the region watched their so called "defenders of Islam" slaughter their fellow Muslim on international television and on the Internet with Bashir in Sudan, the Sunni in Iraq, and the Tali-Ban in Afghanistan. Al-Queda has killed far more fellow Muslims through collateral damage and racist execution than they have American troops. They know truth now more than ever before. They also know what does not work and they are starving for an Arab success after centuries of failures (the last 60 years being the most dramatic).
 
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MSgt said:
I believe Egypt will surpass Turkey in this regard. Turks were converts to Islam at the end of the Crusades (which is what sealed Christian defeat). Converts tend to have something to prove and since this is the place where 1400 years of the caliphate was abolished, they will strugle between Islam and government for some time.




Which is why I believe that it will change the region and the world to the positive. The caliphates resided in Baghdad and Cairo for a very long time before they lived in Istanbul. It was the Sunni elders of Mecca that sabotaged Islam once they lost their position on the throne. The so called "Golden Age" of Islam came to an end because Sunni elders decided it so. Ottoman Sultans were denied their attempts to modernize Islam and the region by Sunni elders on the Arabian peninsula repeatedly. Nasser of Egypt was secular and sought to separate Islam from government in Egyptians loved him. Sunni elders on the Arabian peninsula still seek to influence the region's Arabs and we can see this with the waves of Arabs into Iraq to kill Shia and western inspired democracy as well as the streak of radicalism in Egypt and others. But modernization, globalization, and the advent of communication technology has had a far greater influence on people than the religious figure who themes around hatred, racism, and persecution.

Islam's future is now being determined before our very eyes by Istanbul, Baghdad, and now Cairo. Mecca is even more bitter, old, and stale than ever before.
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Other than a secular, Islamic mix of government, I think the Turkish economy has a big role to play in the influence Turkey will have in the region. Turkey definitely beats out Egypt in that regard.

I kinda figured you were a conservative, given your military background etc, but you really do sound like a Neoconservative to me. I am very frustrated and pissed off by the short-term thinking and fear-mongering from conservatives. I had thought that one of their closest held principles was Liberty for all. Their reaction to the revolution in Egypt leaves me wanting. They are not optimistic or hopeful or inspired. Instead they are dour and cynical. Why do I want people with no hope in their soul to run my country? They are hypocrites, just like America has been in its support of dictatorships out of a desire for stability and pure greed.
 
MSgt said:
The media and their "experts" will have you believe that it is the radical voice that controls the winds of change. But this is not true. Strength belongs to the democratic side. One may wonder what side would have the strength had Iraqis not served as examples or the absence of the Internet.
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I have been waiting since 2001 for the forces of liberalism in the Muslim world to make their stand. This will do.
 
apdst said:
Spain, France, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia, Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Serbia, Romania, Hungary, Albania, Slovenia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, Yemen, Somalia, Oman, Kuwait, Syria, Jordon, Israel, India, Gerogia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Turkmenistan, Azerbijan, Usbekistan, England, Canada, The United States have all come under atttack/been occupied by force by militant Muslim forces.

This is Islam's history. Know, love it, live it.
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Plus Indonesia, Argentina, Russia, Algeria, Holland, Morocco, and possibly more.
 
MSgt said:
It's all in the history. For one, Democracy is the natural course for every single culture on earth. This Arab Middle East cannot be an exception. A reformation within Islam and they are like the rest of us. Hell, the first caliphate was democratically elected at a time when the Shia demanded blood line monarcy. Since mid 20th century, Iran (Shia) had been experimenting with democracy while it was the Arab governments (Sunni) embraced secular dictatorship. This has been changing since the invasion into Iraq in 2003. And second, democracy in Egypt has been a theme since Muhammad Ali (early 19th century). He modernized Egypt and westernized it as best he could. Despite his dynasty being a string of dictators, the people underneath began to lean towards democracy (Western influence) and religious radicalism (Meccan influence). When his dynasty passed to the Nasser dynasty in 1952, the same themes existed. However, both were willing trust in Nasser. Almost 60 years later, the screams from both side have become louder. The media and their "experts" will have you believe that it is the radical voice that controls the winds of change. But this is not true. Strength belongs to the democratic side. One may wonder what side would have the strength had Iraqis not served as examples or the absence of the Internet. If America can't get away with what it used to, because the entire world has the capacity and technology to pay attention, what does this mean for corrupt Arab leaders? You think they can get away with religious oppression or using "foriegn devils" to excuse their local behaviors and prescriptions anymore?


The key to Islam's future is Istanbul, Baghdad, and Cairo. Shall we go out on a limb and forecast an eventual Tehran? Now I don't mean to imply that utopia or Vermont in the desert is one vote away. We have to be practical. After all, it even took the high and mighty French some 70 years to get to the other side of their experiment. But we should also appreciate that others of us have gone through the unknowns of democracy when nothing served as an example. Today, the world is quite familiar with the recipes. Iraq now holds the record for building a democracy (formerly it was the Dutch) and the rest of the region watched their so called "defenders of Islam" slaughter their fellow Muslim on international television and on the Internet with Bashir in Sudan, the Sunni in Iraq, and the Tali-Ban in Afghanistan. Al-Queda has killed far more fellow Muslims through collateral damage and racist execution than they have American troops. They know truth now more than ever before. They also know what does not work and they are starving for an Arab success after centuries of failures (the last 60 years being the most dramatic).
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I recall the darker days of the Cold War when it was the Americans who were being criticized through protest marches and in the media while the Communists actually had some sympathy. Still do in some quarters. At that time I also had doubts about whether democracy could survive when quite intelligent people were quite supportive of Communism and offering it as an alternative lifestyle. It was always the American leaders who were stupid while the sophisticated Communist leaders enjoyed jazz and fine wines.

Now it seems that I didn't have enough confidence in my fellow man and you appear right that "Democracy is the natural course for every single culture on earth".

The deeper question remains of why those living in the democracies don't see its advantages and then fight for democracy everywhere. How do those who should know better rationalize Fascism, Communism, Islamism, Nazism, and so on, while blaming democracy (or "capitalism") for all the world's ills?
 
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