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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

Obama's stance on Egypt is extremely significant, no matter what pundits think about the wane of US influence. But I agree that the freedom wave in the ME is larger than the president at this point. All part of the MASTER PLAN, instantiated by Bush, that you claim was invalidated by the left. I will say again that the left's hatred for Bush caused them to oppose the spread of freedom in the world. That's a complete invalidation of their own ideals. They have nothing to offer the world of value. The left is completely decrepit.

The Democracy MASTER PLAN is alive and well and shaking the region on its own merits without our acquiescence. The freedom movement is set free and running on its own. We cannot stop it even if we wanted too.

I once thought it was America's role in history to spread the ideal of individual liberty and democracy throughout the world by the power of its ideas. Then 9/11 happened. I agreed with Bush's Democracy Agenda as a response to 9/11.

Then I discovered that the American left was prepared to sandbag the country and use the stuggle in Iraq for domestic political purposes. This has changed my entire view of what America's role in the world is. The left sought power by discrediting the Democracy Agenda and cannot now claim to be the advocate of the spread of individual liberty.

I wish the people of the Arab world well. May they find freedom in whatever form they come upon it. But America no longer has a role in spreading democracy in the world. Many conservatives believe that individual liberty is in fact endangered in America itself. We have business at home.
 
Additionally:
as I said previously in reiteration of Gardener's point, liberalism has to precede Liberal (or secular) Democracy.
'Islamist Deomocracy' is a more tricky concept, perhaps an oxymoron.
Some of the Arab Peninsula is ruled by Kings/Sheiks/Emirs, who are prosperous and happy.

Transition for some places like the UAE would be much easier.. if they wanted it.
Qatar is not close to democracy, yet this is the home of (mostly) Free and open al-jazeera.
Hated by most Arab Tyrants.
Is official democracy as pressing if you've got prosperity and can voice your opinion?
 
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OK, sure. No problems. The point here is that "seeds" were planted. Before Iraqi Freeedom where and what were the seeds? Before Tunisia where was the "enlightenment" for change? It's not like they are blind to the West and to all the prescriptions that have not only made us prosperous, but individually free to express and worship. Do you think Muslims across the region have religious freedom? Ask the Shia outside of Iraq and Iran what they think about that. Ask the non-Arab and Chrisitian victims in Sudan what they think. Ask any tribe within a Sunni government that question. What if this historical awakening and probably most important era in future's history is occurring right before your very eyes? America didn't become so great because it was too afraid to gamble and push so heavily upon our capacity to promote individual expression, creativity, and a basic human rights. Why then, do we insist that only keeping it and not promoting it elsewhere will result in our doom?





It's merely a base in which to show that they have the capacity for it.

Ten years ago I would have been joined to you at the hip intellectually. What changed? My perception of the perfidy of the American left. The struggle is at home. Not overseas.
 
Whatever, dude. You can read. Here, I'll quote.

I am familiar with the flowering of Arab civilization. The flower was cut off by the Seljuk Turks, Mongols and Mamelukes. That garden has been dead for almost a thousand years.
 
What are your thoughts about Afghanistan, its future, our influence and involvement, and Pakistan's sphere of influence?

I have shifted my personal/professional study and focus on Arab culture (generally Middle Eastern) to Afghani (south Asia) since the beginning of December.

Afghanistan is determined to be Afghanistan. Its history is its future. Because the exhausting cultural classes they have placed us in for the last 2 months, I believe that Marine and Army command (Mattis/Patreaus) have come to this conclusion. This entire country is made up of tribes that straddle every single border. They are far worse than Iraqis in terms of unity and far more capable of celebrating their frictions. But they are also, however, far more loyal to base tribal ideologies and traditions that appear to agree with each other (honor, duty, family, etc.). We have to acknowledge that "victory" in Afghanistan means a strong central Pashtun government that respects the "soveriegnty" of its ancient tribes within the territory (all of which are made up of people who do not consider themselves "Afghani.")

This future very much relies upon current on going missions. General Patreaus asked General Mattis to produce Marine teams faster to replace Army and NATO teams since our role in Iraq finished. The Afghani military (ANA) and Afghani security forces (AFSN) are in the process of not only addressing the corruption they have within, but where there lines are drawn. We are up against a culture that has not traditionally had a military/police force working together and respecting their roles. They are responding very well to the Marine advisor teams and are exponentially requesting Marine teams. The British and other Nato Generals have come to Camp Lejeune to discover our training methods and how we are getting such positive responses.

The biggest problem is corruption on the civilian side. Many of the Afghani forces are having to struggle to get their politicians and bureaucrats to pay them their salaries and to provide them their proper support (pay, feul, ammo, etc.) By the time it reaches them, much of their "support" has been stolen by individual butt holes who seek a more immediate personal gain. In the mean time, our ongoing efforts (military and NGO) to provide villages with technical support and educational opportunities (over 80 percent can't read and many of them have never even heard of 9/11) are having positive affect.

Pakistan is just a big mess.
 
I am familiar with the flowering of Arab civilization. The flower was cut off by the Seljuk Turks, Mongols and Mamelukes. That garden has been dead for almost a thousand years.

But it can't stay dead. In the nuclear Cold War future that is the Middle East, it simply can not stay dead.
 
But it can't stay dead. In the nuclear Cold War future that is the Middle East, it simply can not stay dead.

My friend, you remind me of the hero Horatius at the Bridge. But it is difficult to rise above the sentiments and morality of a decadent era.
 
I once thought it was America's role in history to spread the ideal of individual liberty and democracy throughout the world by the power of its ideas. Then 9/11 happened. I agreed with Bush's Democracy Agenda as a response to 9/11.

ALRIGHT, DUDE, now we are getting somewhere. I have enjoyed many of you other posts, re immigration effects in CA and so on (you are perhaps a bit too fatalistic and pessimistic about it for me. I believe strongly in the power of the ideals of America to change people and assimilation will occur to a degree, especially if we can get them out of the projects. The only hiccup is that we have a Borderland problem with Mexicans versus all the other immigrants - all other immigrants had to leave their culture to come here and so are more susceptible to getting reculturated within a generation or two).

Then I discovered that the American left was prepared to sandbag the country and use the stuggle in Iraq for domestic political purposes.

I am not even sure what to say about this. It saddens and infuriates me. They are covered in ****. Pricks all of them.

This has changed my entire view of what America's role in the world is.

This is what puzzles me. If you started off with conviction for the Democracy Agenda, how did the left's despicable reaction to it and attempts to discredit it and Bush, for politic points, cause you to change your entire view of America's role in the world? Did you somehow buy into what the left said about it? They certainly offered no explicit alternative.

The left sought power by discrediting the Democracy Agenda and cannot now claim to be the advocate of the spread of individual liberty.

Indeed. I think many conservatives, while concerned about the power fundamentalists may attain, and also concerned about damage to our economic interests (we only import 10% of all ME oil), fully support the ideal of democratizing the ME. Even the Realists.

I wish the people of the Arab world well. May they find freedom in whatever form they come upon it. But America no longer has a role in spreading democracy in the world. Many conservatives believe that individual liberty is in fact endangered in America itself. We have business at home.

We disagree. We do have serious business at home but we have never had to focus on only one issue at one time. We can do both. We aren't going to be invading another country...Iraq was a one time deal and invasion is no longer necessary as the wave of democratization is sweeping the region on its own merits. But we do have a significant diplomatic and economic role to play in these developments.

Obama is doing exactly the right thing and I applaud him for it!
 
I have shifted my personal/professional study and focus on Arab culture (generally Middle Eastern) to Afghani (south Asia) since the beginning of December.

Afghanistan is determined to be Afghanistan. Its history is its future. Because the exhausting cultural classes they have placed us in for the last 2 months, I believe that Marine and Army command (Mattis/Patreaus) have come to this conclusion. This entire country is made up of tribes that straddle every single border. They are far worse than Iraqis in terms of unity and far more capable of celebrating their frictions. But they are also, however, far more loyal to base tribal ideologies and traditions that appear to agree with each other (honor, duty, family, etc.). We have to acknowledge that "victory" in Afghanistan means a strong central Pashtun government that respects the "soveriegnty" of its ancient tribes within the territory (all of which are made up of people who do not consider themselves "Afghani.")

This future very much relies upon current on going missions. General Patreaus asked General Mattis to produce Marine teams faster to replace Army and NATO teams since our role in Iraq finished. The Afghani military (ANA) and Afghani security forces (AFSN) are in the process of not only addressing the corruption they have within, but where there lines are drawn. We are up against a culture that has not traditionally had a military/police force working together and respecting their roles. They are responding very well to the Marine advisor teams and are exponentially requesting Marine teams. The British and other Nato Generals have come to Camp Lejeune to discover our training methods and how we are getting such positive responses.

The biggest problem is corruption on the civilian side. Many of the Afghani forces are having to struggle to get their politicians and bureaucrats to pay them their salaries and to provide them their proper support (pay, feul, ammo, etc.) By the time it reaches them, much of their "support" has been stolen by individual butt holes who seek a more immediate personal gain. In the mean time, our ongoing efforts (military and NGO) to provide villages with technical support and educational opportunities (over 80 percent can't read and many of them have never even heard of 9/11) are having positive affect.

Pakistan is just a big mess.

Semper Fi, MSgt. I so wish I had waited a bit longer and joined the Marines instead of the Army. I had a blast in the Army and over 8 years I was a Track Mechanic, Supply Clerk, RATT rig operator and, my favorite, an Intelligence Analyst for a Fld Arty Bde HQ, working in the Op Center. I tried rejoining as a MOS 35F, Intelligence Analyst, but I can't do the PT test any longer. :( I think Intelligence is one of the best MOSs for our efforts, since Counterinsurgency is won by having the best intelligence: on the enemy, civilians, social networks, corruption, etc, at least according to FM 3-24. The Marine Corps is known for the 3 block war, although now I hear it is the 4 block war: Clear-Hold-Build-Transition. I am very, very glad to hear from you that the Marines are having such a great impact to our ops.

Thanks for the overview of AFG and all the best in your deployment!
 
I once thought it was America's role in history to spread the ideal of individual liberty and democracy throughout the world by the power of its ideas. Then 9/11 happened. I agreed with Bush's Democracy Agenda as a response to 9/11.

Then I discovered that the American left was prepared to sandbag the country and use the stuggle in Iraq for domestic political purposes. This has changed my entire view of what America's role in the world is. The left sought power by discrediting the Democracy Agenda and cannot now claim to be the advocate of the spread of individual liberty.

I wish the people of the Arab world well. May they find freedom in whatever form they come upon it. But America no longer has a role in spreading democracy in the world. Many conservatives believe that individual liberty is in fact endangered in America itself. We have business at home.

It's the Left everywhere though, Albert, and their lengthy camppaign of anti Americanism.

Were the democracies to have been united with each other freedom and democracy would have spread more swiftly. But when the left aligned themselves with Communist dictatorships and attacked Ronald Reagan moreso than Communist leaders it was a clear sign of just how fragile democracy is and how easy it is for the Left to condemn others to live under totalitarianism. And of course they will attack George Bush and Tony Blair much more than they will be critical of any ME leader, past or present.

Anti Americanism in Europe has allowed a vacuum to be created and this is being filled by Islamic extremists. The left, for the most part, are dangerous fools.
 
ALRIGHT, DUDE, now we are getting somewhere. I have enjoyed many of you other posts, re immigration effects in CA and so on (you are perhaps a bit too fatalistic and pessimistic about it for me. I believe strongly in the power of the ideals of America to change people and assimilation will occur to a degree, especially if we can get them out of the projects. The only hiccup is that we have a Borderland problem with Mexicans versus all the other immigrants - all other immigrants had to leave their culture to come here and so are more susceptible to getting reculturated within a generation or two).



I am not even sure what to say about this. It saddens and infuriates me. They are covered in ****. Pricks all of them.



This is what puzzles me. If you started off with conviction for the Democracy Agenda, how did the left's despicable reaction to it and attempts to discredit it and Bush, for politic points, cause you to change your entire view of America's role in the world? Did you somehow buy into what the left said about it? They certainly offered no explicit alternative.



Indeed. I think many conservatives, while concerned about the power fundamentalists may attain, and also concerned about damage to our economic interests (we only import 10% of all ME oil), fully support the ideal of democratizing the ME. Even the Realists.



We disagree. We do have serious business at home but we have never had to focus on only one issue at one time. We can do both. We aren't going to be invading another country...Iraq was a one time deal and invasion is no longer necessary as the wave of democratization is sweeping the region on its own merits. But we do have a significant diplomatic and economic role to play in these developments.

Obama is doing exactly the right thing and I applaud him for it!

I would like to agree with you. I sincerely hope you are right with one proviso.

Look at the last sentence of your post. Speaking figuratively, cut off the head of the snake and the tail don't rattle. My radicalization by the left is complete. I am reminded of Oppenheimer at Alamagordo: "I have become death, the destroyer of worlds."
 
Obama is doing exactly the right thing and I applaud him for it!
Look at the last sentence of your post. Speaking figuratively, cut off the head of the snake and the tail don't rattle. My radicalization by the left is complete. I am reminded of Oppenheimer at Alamagordo: "I have become death, the destroyer of worlds."

Sorry, I don't get what you are saying. Could you be precise and specific rather than using allegory, please?
 
Sorry, I don't get what you are saying. Could you be precise and specific rather than using allegory, please?

It seems he's saying that his disgust with the left has made him so radicalized in opposition to them that even if the figurehead of "the left" does something right he's unwilling to acknowledge it or even view it as such because he thinks the only way to "kill the snake" is to "cut off its head" (in this case, the most powerful person on the left in this country) at all costs. Essentially, that he's become so radical that disagreeing with Obama on something Obama is theoritically "correct" on is the better option in his mind because it makes the long term goal of removing Obama easier, and thus he's willing to essentially be wrong on an issue in the short term by opposing what Obama's doing because it'll do better for his radical view in the long term.
 
Sorry, I don't get what you are saying. Could you be precise and specific rather than using allegory, please?

What happens in the world is a matter of intellectual curiosity. The life of the mind knows no limits.

But my practical focus is exclusively on the American left and the destruction of their world. I have now embraced leftist tactics to destroy leftist ideology. American leftists are unrelenting, unremitting, and they cannot be deterred. They believe the ends justify the means. They believe their perveived moral superiority gives them license to use any tactics regardless of the consequences.

That being the case, one can only engage them with the same degree of relentlessness.
 
Semper Fi, MSgt. I so wish I had waited a bit longer and joined the Marines instead of the Army.

Well, we just have specific roles that allow us to tailor our training towards. The Army is self-sufficient, which forces a very wide spectrum of technical duty. This doesn't really allow for direct and constant infantry training for all. The Marines don't have to train Corpsmen to be Corpsmen, Sea Bees to be Sea Bees, high altitude bombers to drop bombs, etc. We are a very focused organization without the wider vision of distraction. Hell, even the training of our engineers are geared towards understanding structures, not so much to build (unless we are talking defense), but to destroy.

I think Intelligence is one of the best MOSs for our efforts, since Counterinsurgency is won by having the best intelligence: on the enemy, civilians, social networks, corruption, etc, at least according to FM 3-24. The Marine Corps is known for the 3 block war, although now I hear it is the 4 block war: Clear-Hold-Build-Transition. I am very, very glad to hear from you that the Marines are having such a great impact to our ops.


We've been building on the "human" intel officers in recent years (intel MOS). After the Cold War, we discovered that we had built our intel systems around satellite photo analysis. Ralph Peters (Army LtCol retired) wrote about this danger in the late 90s. He mentioned how we were doing oursleves and the world a disservice by ending many of our regional Cold War programs that served the local populations in terms of relationships, financial aid, technical aid, and educational aid. Washington's idea that the Berlin Wall coming down meant an "end to our wars" was not only near sighted, but absolutely stupid on a criminal level. 9/11 was absolute proof that our intel networks hadn't the ability to peer into a man's soul where a satellite can't reach. Human intel places our individuals in personal contact with human beings and we are trying to merge their cultural history, current events, and environmental considerations into a proper conclusion that can aid us in our efforts.



Thanks for the overview of AFG and all the best in your deployment!

Always welcome.
 
It seems he's saying that his disgust with the left has made him so radicalized in opposition to them that even if the figurehead of "the left" does something right he's unwilling to acknowledge it or even view it as such because he thinks the only way to "kill the snake" is to "cut off its head" (in this case, the most powerful person on the left in this country) at all costs. Essentially, that he's become so radical that disagreeing with Obama on something Obama is theoritically "correct" on is the better option in his mind because it makes the long term goal of removing Obama easier, and thus he's willing to essentially be wrong on an issue in the short term by opposing what Obama's doing because it'll do better for his radical view in the long term.

Well said.
 
It seems he's saying that his disgust with the left has made him so radicalized in opposition to them that even if the figurehead of "the left" does something right he's unwilling to acknowledge it or even view it as such because he thinks the only way to "kill the snake" is to "cut off its head" (in this case, the most powerful person on the left en elin this country) at all costs. Essentially, that he's become so radical that disagreeing with Obama on something Obama is theoritically "correct" on is the better option in his mind because it makes the long term goal of removing Obama easier, and thus he's willing to essentially be wrong on an issue in the short term by opposing what Obama's doing because it'll do better for his radical view in the long term.
He's already admitted, elucidated his philosophy early on here.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...and-end-mubarak-regime-30.html#post1059252360

It was a bit of shocker for me:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...and-end-mubarak-regime-32.html#post1059252501

Albert said:
I do not have Obama's best interests at heart. I do not have the American Left's best interests at heart. I have been radicalized by the Left.
me said:
This is the recipe for a destructive/non-objective answer.
Albert said:
Political nihilism is the path that I am on....

but Albert does make some very good points. You just have to view his posts through black-colored glasses when it comes to anything domestic-political.
 
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Back to the thread......there are 82 million people in Egypt. Are their thoughts and wishes represented by these few people in the Square?
 
I have lived most of my adult life under the yoke of leftist governance. I have been forced to dissemble, cooperate, and even contribute to their corruption in order to get ahead.

I feel no need to dissemble on DP. Indeed, I wield inconvienent truths as a sword to slay their morale. Knowledge of the existence of implacable domestic enemies who will not stop until their world is destroyed has a disquieting effect on leftist morale.

American leftists will miss George Bush and those who would make peace with them in the illusion that ideological coexistence was possible.
 
I have lived most of my adult life under the yoke of leftist governance. I have been forced to dissemble, cooperate, and even contribute to their corruption in order to get ahead.

I feel no need to dissemble on DP. Indeed, I wield inconvienent truths as a sword to slay their morale. Knowledge of the existence of implacable domestic enemies who will not stop until their world is destroyed has a disquieting effect on leftist morale.

American leftists will miss George Bush and those who would make peace with them in the illusion that ideological coexistence was possible.

Californian huh? :lol: Joking
 
Hmm, OK. Let's do that. The hotbeds of fundamentalism in the ME...that would be Gaza, Yemen, Somalia, and Iran. The first three are desperately poor failed states; the latter is an oil-rich Shiite country. None of them have much in common with the larger Sunni Arab states.

Poverty...start there...
 
I guess that is a legitimate point. But I wonder where the reduction of the power of the King John over his Barons constitutes a democratic breakout. The Magna Carta was signed in the early 13th century. Things thereafter remained in stasis until the European enlightenment and the English Revolution. Please correct me if I am mistaken. I am happy to learn from someone like you.

you're awesome, mr di salvo, please keep doing exactly what you're doing

edward the first, longshanks, the english justinian, rather codified the power of parliament to approve or not major national expenses, he felt his military excursions into scotland would be bolstered by baronial support, he felt he needed the muscle of the nation behind him...

longshanks is the guy in mel gibson's braveheart who throws his son edward 2's boyfriend out the castle window cuz he was gay and just so insufferably arrogant

edward 2 died in a barrel of malmsey in berkeley castle in 1327 on the eve of his son edward 3's initiation of the hundred years war, fought over edward 3's assertion of his great great great grandfather henry plantagenet's claims to anjou, aquitaine, normandy

henry 2, husband of eleanor, is of course killer of becket, as well as father of couer de lion, john and the usurper son henry 3

henry 2, one of the greatest figures of the hi middle ages, thus embodies so many of the characteristics in his story of shakespeare's tragic lear, betrayed by his offspring

we later have the short parliament of pym, the long parliament that became the protectorate of the pilgrim cromwell before the restoration in the form of the stuarts which the second james betrayed by having a son who was sure to be raised catholic, leading to the glorious revolution of 1688, the invitation by the tory parliament of william of orange to assume

in france we have similar if slower rises of parliamentary power at the expense of royalty, reversed of course by the sun king, louis 14, who died in 1715, followed by his successors grandson and great grandson, both political incompetents who ruled between em almost a century

in italy, venice is for a thousand years a "republic" (really more of an oligarchy), but control is divided amongst the hundred or so leading families of the rialto, and venice politics is probably most famous for its stability

the poles' great middle kingdom of the late middle ages was famously undone by the parliamentary privilege of any one junker to veto in the sejm any national resolve

of course there's periclean athens, there's republican rome which outgrew the ability of the patrician hills to control, too dependent on great men, individuals, to wield their work faraway, men like marius, sulla, pompey and naturally caesar

these generals grew far more powerful than the cicero's and cato's collectively, the traditions of republican forms tho were half a millenium old and honored, it took a great deal of machination on the part of the patricians to push the caesars to cross that ultimate divide

tacitus' germanica attempts in about 100 pages to describe the various tribes to the north which would ultimately undo the empire, their physical and military characteristics, their cultures and politics

and the german tribes on the other sides of the rhine and danube were remarkably democratic, according to the greatest of the source writers, rome's greatest historian/analyst, son in law of agricola the great governor of roman britain, about 117 ad

fyi

thanks for the opportunity to discuss my only intellectual love greater than politics

keep up the good work
 
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Poverty...start there...

I agree, the hotbeds of terrorism in the Arab world (e.g. Gaza and Yemen) are very poor. Most other Arab countries are not. That's why I'm not too worried about jihadists overrunning the Egyptian government anytime soon. Egypt might have high unemployment, but it's far more economically developed than failed states like Gaza and Yemen.
 
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The most radical are not the poor.

The commonality is Islam.

There are plenty of Islamic countries (even Arab countries) that aren't breeding grounds for terrorists in the same way that Gaza and Yemen are. The best way to reduce terrorism is to eliminate the conditions in which it thrives: Desperate poverty and a weak state.
 
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