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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

Military invasion and the installation of a puppet regime perhaps ?

Perhaps - but the post I was replying to said getting rid of Saddam was not a reason for the war as he remembered, thus I was refreshing his/her memory.
 
I think we can expect conservative skeptics on Fox News to change some of their tune now. Because of the treatment of journalists in Egypt by the mob, we can be assured that journalists of any ideological stripe will stick to their tribe and demand that justice be delivered to their sacred job.
 
Perhaps - but the post I was replying to said getting rid of Saddam was not a reason for the war as he remembered, thus I was refreshing his/her memory.

No problem, I was just completing your post.
 
I cannot believe that anyone on earth believes that Bush gave a rat's arse about the Iraqi people and their freedom. I'm sorry, I can only laugh, or bang my head against my keyboard, no I guess I'll just laugh, not worth hurting my beautiful head over such bovine manure.

Mira, it was the whole point in doing it. We would not have bothered otherwise. It was the core strategy.
 
Mira, it was the whole point in doing it. We would not have bothered otherwise. It was the core strategy.

No come on, stop it please. You don't actually believe that, do you ? please tell me that this is a joke.
 
What does Democracy mean to any dignified human being ?

Democracy has no fixed definition. That's why I asked you about how the Egyptians, and Arabs, conceived of democracy.

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea considers itself a democracy. The European Union considers itself an aggregation of democracies, but many people consider the EU to be a bureaucratic dystopia.

I'm looking for reasoned analysis. That's really important. One learns from new perspectives.

There is no democratic tradition in the Arab world. There is no intelligentsia or other elite in the Arab world that has a coherent view of democracy to the best of my knowledge. I thought you could give me insight.

Conservatives in America believe that democracy to Arabs means one election one time. In other words we believe the absence of any experience or incubation of democracy in the Arab world, combined with the current level of education among average Arabs, means that Arab voters will place their trust in religious figures who they hope have a higher morality. But once religious figures coopt a popular revolution there will be election fraud of the type we see in Iran, or power plays by groups like Hezbollah like we see in Lebanon.
 
Do you honestly, honestly, I mean looking yourself in the mirror kind of honestly, think that Bush's aim was to bring democracy to Iraq ??

And is that what you think Arabs are all about ? Dictators/Slaves and Muslim fundementalists ?


They don't gasp freedom as YOU do ? are you saying they are some kind of an inferior species ?

Partly, sure.

He wanted a regime change. His intelligence information (and Clinton's) said there were weapons programs in Iraq that were providing for terrorist groups. 9/11 had just occurred. The region was growing increasinly unstable, and still is.

But yes, I believe he thought that if there was a chance that we could get rid of Saddam and install a seed of democracy, there was a chance it could take root and spread across the Middle East in time. Perhaps a century or so, but in time.

You don't think that was part of it?
 
Democracy has no fixed definition. That's why I asked you about how the Egyptians, and Arabs, conceived of democracy.

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea considers itself a democracy. The European Union considers itself an aggregation of democracies, but many people consider the EU to be a bureaucratic dystopia.

I'm looking for reasoned analysis. That's really important. One learns from new perspectives.

There is no democratic tradition in the Arab world. There is no intelligentsia or other elite in the Arab world that has a coherent view of democracy to the best of my knowledge. I thought you could give me insight.

Conservatives in America believe that democracy to Arabs means one election one time. In other words we believe the absence of any experience or incubation of democracy in the Arab world, combined with the current level of education among average Arabs, means that Arab voters will place their trust in religious figures who they hope have a higher morality. But once religious figures coopt a popular revolution there will be election fraud of the type we see in Iran, or power plays by groups like Hezbollah like we see in Lebanon.


Excellent post ! thank you ! I will be back to discuss it with you. Worth a thread on its own though.

Right now my son is preparing me a c--ktail and neighbour coming over for a drink.

talk to you later.
 
That's funny...

Are you suggesting you invaded Iraq because it had a dictator...

I don't remember that as one of the reasons...

Getting rid of Saddam was a huge reason. You don't recall the discussions of a regime change in Iraq?
 
I think we can expect conservative skeptics on Fox News to change some of their tune now. Because of the treatment of journalists in Egypt by the mob, we can be assured that journalists of any ideological stripe will stick to their tribe and demand that justice be delivered to their sacred job.

Haha.:)

ten characters
 
I don't agree with Ricksfolly's spin on the story, but American corporations would not have been allowed to sell dangerous chemicals (aka teargas) outside the U.S. without tacit government permission.

M7's are military issue, and when I read apdst's comment about not having the "made in USA" on them, that's the way I took it and didn't pay it no mind. My recollection of CS canisters were they were either Green/White or White and had M7A3 - CS stamped on them. Sure, there's tons of company's in the U.S. who make CS canisters and exporting them, but I was thinking military issue.
 
No, but there is a significant change in tone on Fox News, and a more charged feeling in any of the networks with their employees or colleagues being attacked by the pro-government mob. The level of skepticism has really been toned down in comparison with the beginning of this story.
 
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Ayatollah Khomeini was definitely a conservative so I guess you are right, conservatives do revolt. I stand corrected. However, in the case of our history, the Sons of Liberty were definitely classic liberals/progressives and the loyalist were traditionalist/conservatives.

You need to learn the actual definitions of these words.
 
there really is no threat that of an islamist regime. the muslim brotherhood is a small part of the government. and anyway, SO WHAT if the egyptian people decide they want an islamist govt? it's not our damned business.

Then, stop insisting that Mubarack step down.

So far, the MB is the only mouth piece for the anti-government faction and all they keep saying is that they're going to abolish the peace treaty with Israel.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20110203/162433368.html
 
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No, but there is a significant change in tone on Fox News, and a more charged feeling in any of the networks with their employees or colleagues being attacked by the pro-government mob. The level of skepticism has really been toned down in comparison with the beginning of this story.

If somehow Mubarak were to maintain power, we'd definitely have another Saddam on our hands. You know he feels betrayed, no matter how much Bush and Obama have been pleading with him to make changes.

He's got to go. If the Egyptian people can't get that done, do we intervene here, too?

Messy, messy, messy.
 
The fact is, the Middle East - the cradle of civilization - still grapples with the most basic human rights that western civilization takes virtually for granted. You kind of have to deal with the lesser of two evils. This part of the world doesn't seem to grasp "democracy" or "freedom" as we do, which is why they gravitate to what they've known, dicatorships and fundamental Islamic rule.

They haven't "gravitated" to dictatorships. Did the majority of the people of Iraq choose to be under the thumb of Saddam Hussein? Thugs and dictators keep control over the majority of the population through the willingness to use unbridled force to control them (and by being better armed and better equipped than the populace that they are oppressing).

Mubarak has maintained control for 30 years in Egypt primarily because WE ARMED AND FUNDED HIM. You are pretending as if these people CHOSE oppression.

In reality, WE CHOSE IT FOR THEM. It's time for you to be intellectually honest.
 
Then, stop insisting that Mubarack step down.

Keeping Mubarack on top of the masses was a huge mistake. Insisting that he step down and allow the people of Egypt to have self-rule is the first step in righting that wrong.
 
Messy, messy, messy.

See what happens when we meddle in the affairs of other nations, fund oppressive regimes, and provide them with weapons?

We're reaping what we've sown for the past 30 years, and YES, it is messy.
 
If somehow Mubarak were to maintain power, we'd definitely have another Saddam on our hands. You know he feels betrayed, no matter how much Bush and Obama have been pleading with him to make changes.

He's got to go. If the Egyptian people can't get that done, do we intervene here, too?

Messy, messy, messy.

I hope our military is in contact with the top Egyptian military commanders right now. It shouldn't be difficult for them to go arrest Mubarak and forcibly put him on a plane to Saudi Arabia.
 
Actually al-Qaeda hates the Muslim Brotherhood. Apparently the MB is too warm and fuzzy for Osama Bin Laden's tastes. With that said, we can and should open dialog with them. If Egypt transitions to democracy, it isn't clear whether the MB can win a majority outright...but they almost certainly will play SOME significant role in a democratic Egypt.

So, since they don't dig AQ, that makes them the good guys?

We need to have a workable relationship with Egypt, regardless of who is in charge. That means we need to come to terms with reality. The MB might not be who we would elect, but we're going to have to work with them. Isolating them only gives them a reason to hate America and radicalize their population, which certainly does not benefit American interests.

The MB wants war with Israel. Tell us how that's going to become a workable relationship.
 
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