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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

A couple of misrepresentations I keep seeing here have to do with the way people are being accused of standing against democracy if they express any concerns about the Muslim Brotherhood. Anybody who actually knows what the Muslim Brotherhood is all about realizes Democracy is not their aim, though they are quite willing to utilize the constructs of such for the short term as long as it suits their purpose.

It's not really being against democracy, but worrying about the potential for democracy to be undermined that is the issue here.

Another misconception involves the will of the people and the notion of human rights. The two do not always go hand in hand, especially when minorities or women are concerned, as the will of the people may involve a greater sense of self-determination for some, but it can cause the disenfranchisement of others. While the greater good CAN be promoted through democratic means, there is no guarantee that the implementation of nominally democratic structures will result in the greater good.
 
Laila said:
How absolutely insulting. "The fault of the people." FOR WHAT? Protesting?
You know nothing about Muslim/Arab dictators.
2 key things Mubarak speech did not confirm. 8 Months to let things calm down to then instate his own son like some of King and secondly constitutional changes will then be facing the Parliament from the last election which was rigged! All Mubarak will say is that constitutional changes got rejected by Parliament so nothing they can do.

Ignoring the fact that it is the security forces that have infiltrated the Pro Mubarak side, their ID cards found on the attacks bodies. The fact that for a week the Anti Government has been peaceful

And do not attempt to speak for all Egyptian Coptic's nor does your friend. A Muslim will sit in presidency no matter what because Egypt is a MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRY. That is akin to asking for a Muslim to sit and lead Poland :roll:

This is not a religious revolution but one for all Egyptians.
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Egyptian Christians forming a ring to protect the Muslims whilst they were praying from the police. The same way Muslims formed a human shield around the Church to protect it from a terrorist attack.

The majority of Egyptians do not want an Islamic State. The Muslim Brotherhood’s popularity was, and remains to not be from the result of widespread support for its ideology rather it's moral principles and its extensive social services network, and the aid it provides to the needy Egyptians. THAT is where it's popularity is based on and last election the Muslim Brotherhood had alot of Christian support as well. The misinformation pouring out of US makes me so angry. Your media is ****ed up.

Mubarak has blood on his hands and all I hope now is for his death. He deserves no less for attempting to cause these clashes. Now there is a shift in an opinion to the Army. They were once seen as protectors, now they stood back and let the police men shoot the Anti Government Protesters. ****ing disgusting
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The protestors are becoming violent. That is their problem and their fault. Even though the president has states he will not seek reelection in September they still aren't satisfied. My information came from friends I know who are from Egypt and have family in Egypt. One of the main proponents to power is some Islamists who is supported by the muslim brotherhood. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, I'm just going by what my Egyptian friends have unanimously told me, not by the "US Media."
 
Catz Part Deux said:
This is a pretty simplistic analysis that is largely false.
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Ayatollah Khomeini was definitely a conservative so I guess you are right, conservatives do revolt. I stand corrected. However, in the case of our history, the Sons of Liberty were definitely classic liberals/progressives and the loyalist were traditionalist/conservatives.
 
digsbe said:
The protestors are becoming violent. That is their problem and their fault. Even though the president has states he will not seek reelection in September they still aren't satisfied. My information came from friends I know who are from Egypt and have family in Egypt. One of the main proponents to power is some Islamists who is supported by the muslim brotherhood. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, I'm just going by what my Egyptian friends have unanimously told me, not by the "US Media."
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the pro mubarak people have become violent, NOT the anti mubarak protestors. and the pro mubarak protests are anything but spontaneous. the president needs to step down NOW.
 
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The Prof said:
when is our perplexed president gonna meet with the leaders of iran, like he promised in his campaign, without preconditions?
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I thought you guys didn't want that?

"the belief that somehow communications and positions and willingness to sit down and have serious negotiations need to be done in a face to face fashion as Senator Obama wants to do, which then enhances the prestige of a nation that's a sponsor of terrorists and is directly responsible for the deaths of brave young Americans, I think is an unacceptable position..."

John McCain: Obama Unfit To Protect The United States
 
liblady said:
the proi mubarak people have become violent, NOT the anti mubarak protestors. and the pro mubarak protests are anything but spontaneous.
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Still, they are pushing for an illegal overthrow and not content with the fact that he will be gone in September. I must confess that I need to research more into this story, but there is a threat of Islamists pushing for an Islamic regime. Egypt is a key ally in a region plagued by conflict. I think it was foolish of the US to pretty much unconditionally back Mubarak. However, it would be detrimental if an Islamist is elected or put into power that breaks peace.
 
digsbe said:
Still, they are pushing for an illegal overthrow and not content with the fact that he will be gone in September. I must confess that I need to research more into this story, but there is a threat of Islamists pushing for an Islamic regime. Egypt is a key ally in a region plagued by conflict. I think it was foolish of the US to pretty much unconditionally back Mubarak. However, it would be detrimental if an Islamist is elected or put into power that breaks peace.
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there really is no threat that of an islamist regime. the muslim brotherhood is a small part of the government. and anyway, SO WHAT if the egyptian people decide they want an islamist govt? it's not our damned business.
 
liblady said:
there really is no threat that of an islamist regime. the muslim brotherhood is a small part of the government. and anyway, SO WHAT if the egyptian people decide they want an islamist govt? it's not our damned business.
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Tell it to Iran. The original protesters there weren't wanting anything like what they ended up with.

Notice how there are virtually no women in the protests, even when they were civil. Real democracy doesn't have a chance in that part of the world.
 
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Catz Part Deux said:
I have to be honest...I don't think these movements are coming about because of our bungling nation building efforts in Iraq. I think that they are happening as a result of increased access to technology and information, which have exposed people to new ideas.
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To be honest, I think it is a variety of things, of which our successful nation building efforts in Iraq are a large element. Of course, everyone's desire, in the ME and beyond, is that the people do this for themselves, without undue external influence. The problem is that that is a really, really hard thing to pull off. Note that the pro-Mubarak crew have many in the security services and that of course means that they have ready access to firearms.

You point out increased access to technology and information. I think Al Jazeera is a HUGE part of this increased access to CRITICAL analysis of regional politics, governments and economics/jobs. They have a LOT of credibility with Arabs as an honest news source, I have heard. This comes from a friend of mine who is a lawyer for Rule of Law issues in the ME and N. Africa (Sudan, Somalia).

I am sure there are other external factors (Tunisia, Israel, Turkey) just as there are many internal issues (Jobs, Education, Police State, ...)
 
Andalublue said:
I may draw different conclusions about how the US should behave towards the ME, but your analysis of Radical and Modernist Islam is very succinct and, I think, quite accurate. Thanks for that!
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Catz Part Deux said:
I think that we should be making public statements in support of freedom and democracy and privately urging Mubarak to get the hell out tomorrow. Which is, I think, exactly what we're doing.

Score one for Obama. I bet that just galls you, doesn't it? ;)
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I would be less sceptical of these statements if Obama threatend to cut off military aid and impose an arms embargo. Im amazed that in disscussions about America supporting democratic change in the middle east no one actually mentions what a radical *change* in policy this would be. Step one for supporting democracy in the Middle East is to stop supporting authoritarian regimes with weapons, aid, and troops. I will belive it when i see it.

As El Baredi put it last year "It has not been based on dialogue, understanding, supporting civil society and empowering people, but rather it's been based on supporting authoritarian systems as long as the oil keeps pumping."

I posted this statement in a thread about this last year ( http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...its-out-wests-support-repressive-regimes.html) criticising U.S support for the regime and few responded other than those berating El Baredi for his anti-Americanism. Now that people can have events in the region spoon fed to them in a palatable form without any context of their own countries culpability in this repression. Thus they can make supportive statements about how America can bring democracy to the region but never actually do anything about how their taxes are being used to support authoritarianism across the region. If you really care about authoritarianism in the Middle East then lobby your congress to stop funding it.
 
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mbig said:
The Truth is this is exactly what Bush and the 'neocons' wanted 10 years ago.
The Truth is that it has in fact worked. (the sourest of pills to swallow for the left/others).
Though demography/hunger/poverty were also causes of riots and will NOT Be cured by democracy alone. Egyptians, Yemenis, etc, will still live with the consequences of high/impossibe-to-support fertility. ie, Gaza's haven't though Hamas is supported by some countries & the UNRWA which abates their unsustainable Birth rate.

The Truth is YOU/Mira has said that Islam needs a Reformation and if/since the Muslim Brotherhood gets effective control or is even the majority party, YOU get 'backfired' on just like everyone else who cares about a Liberal/Secular democracy.
I believe Gardener made a post to the that effect/liberal-ideals-first earlier.

And I made several posts in the string Acknowledging ALL truly elected democatic govts, if not wanting to shower them all with Aid or weaponry.
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Birth rates ??? all this has to do with birth rates ???? really ???

There were millions of people out on the streets yesterday, wanting Democracy and freedom of speech. Egyians from all walks of life, rich, poor, Muslims, Christians, intellectuals, workers..... and you call it a matter of birth rate ??? :doh

And what does Islam has to do with this ? The brotherhood is NOT leading this uprising, as a matter of fact there is no leader. The brotherhood makes less than 20% of the population and they are asking for democratic elections as well.

What's the percentage of Orthodox Jews in Israel ? the Babtists and born again Christians in the USA ?? Ironically it's exactly that, a born again Christian who was president of the USA for 8 years not too long ago. Wasn't he the one who tried to shove Democracy down Irak's throat ? Ahhhh, when we don't need our dictator ally anymore, we screw him up, but up until then we keep him in power and screw the people up. Birth rates :doh


Oh and if you think I give a bird's poo about what Gardener has to say about anything, then you're mistaken.
 
Mira said:
Birth rates ??? all this has to do with birth rates ???? really ???

There were millions of people out on the streets yesterday, wanting Democracy and freedom of speech. Egyians from all walks of life, rich, poor, Muslims, Christians, intellectuals, workers..... and you call it a matter of birth rate ??? :doh
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Those people weren't just intellectuals and workers. (tho they interview best and ergo get on)
Many were from Egypt's VAST hoard of unemployed and ghetto dwellers who are of course dissatisfied... and again.. won't be helped by ant New govt.
Looting has been Rampant with many decent people, even those who want Mubarak gone, want an end to this.

Let's not pretend all those people who didn't make the CNN/a-j interviews were intellectual democrats.
Without growing poverty (and population), the movement wouldn't have much ground support.
The Shah not just because he was A shah, but because he didn't 'share the wealth'.

Birth rate is the biggest Determinant of Poverty in the Arab World.. only sustainable in the NON-revolting Oil rich countries because they CAN afford them.. for now.

No Riots in Saudi or Qatar. Though GDP per person is going down faster in many years than oil is going up.
Only the spike in oil and China's huge consumption support those monarchies and the social programs that keep everyone happy.
Egypt doesn't have 18K per person to give out-- otherwise.. it'd be much quieter in Cairo.. too.
THAT's What birth rate "has to do with it".

And what does Islam has to do with this ? The brotherhood is NOT leading this uprising, as a matter of fact there is no leader. The brotherhood makes less than 20% of the population and they are asking for democratic elections as well.

What's the percentage of Orthodox Jews in Israel ? the Babtists and born again Christians in the USA ?? Ironically it's exactly that, a born again Christian who was president of the USA for 8 years not too long ago. Wasn't he the one who tried to shove Democracy down Irak's throat ? Ahhhh, when we don't need our dictator ally anymore, we screw him up, but up until then we keep him in power and screw the people up. Birth rates :doh
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Unlike in the USA or Israel, the religous party would become the most dominant if not in absolute majority.
I believe the Brotherhood Party and it's proxies make up 'only' app 1/6 of the Egyptian parlialment, but still is the largest block.
Without the suppression of the Mubarak Regime this would easily double IMO, especially with help from outside forces.

Oh and if you think I give a bird's poo about what Gardener has to say about anything, then you're mistaken.
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You make light of everything you can't handle precisely beause you can't.
Which is why you only partially responded and in the Usual childish/goofy way.
 
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apdst said:
Opening dialogue with the Brotherhood would be like opening dialogue with al Qaeda.
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Actually al-Qaeda hates the Muslim Brotherhood. Apparently the MB is too warm and fuzzy for Osama Bin Laden's tastes. With that said, we can and should open dialog with them. If Egypt transitions to democracy, it isn't clear whether the MB can win a majority outright...but they almost certainly will play SOME significant role in a democratic Egypt.

We need to have a workable relationship with Egypt, regardless of who is in charge. That means we need to come to terms with reality. The MB might not be who we would elect, but we're going to have to work with them. Isolating them only gives them a reason to hate America and radicalize their population, which certainly does not benefit American interests.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Score one for Obama.
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The Egyptian government broadened its crackdown on Thursday to the international news media and human rights workers, in an apparent effort to remove witnesses to the battle with antigovernment protesters. With fighting between anti- and pro-government forces escalating throughout the day, armed supporters of President Hosni Mubarak attacked foreign journalists, punching them and smashing their equipment. Men who protesters said were plainclothes police officers shut down news media outlets that had been operating in buildings overlooking Tahrir Square.

An informal center set up by human rights workers in the square was seized, and a group of journalists was stopped in their car near the square by a gang of men with knives and briefly turned over to the military police, ostensibly for their protection. Two reporters working for The New York Times were released on Thursday after being detained overnight in Cairo. Two Washington Post staffers were among two dozen journalists detained by the Interior Ministry Thursday morning, the paper reported.

The concerted effort to remove journalists lent a sense of foreboding to events in the square, where battles continued between the protesters and the Mubarak supporters, who human rights workers and protesters say are being paid and organized by the government. People bringing food, water and medicine to the protesters in the square were being stopped by Mubarak supporters, who confiscated what they had and threw some of it into the Nile.

In the afternoon, the fighting spread beyond the square to the October 6th Bridge, which rises above the Egyptian Museum. Shots were heard, and a surgeon assisting the antigovernment protesters said three people were killed. “It was the police or the army, we don’t know,” said the surgeon, Mohamed Ezz. “Only they have guns.” That followed a night of gunfire and a day of mayhem Wednesday that left at least five dead and more than 800 wounded in a battle for the Middle East’s most populous nation. With the violence rising, the United Nations ordered the evacuation of much of its staff on Thursday, while more than 4,000 passengers made their escape through Cairo airport, The Associated Press reported.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/world/middleeast/04egypt.html?_r=1&hp

press secty gibbs, yesterday---if any of the violence is being initiated by the govt it must stop immediately

if?
 
Erod said:
Tell it to Iran. The original protesters there weren't wanting anything like what they ended up with.

Notice how there are virtually no women in the protests, even when they were civil. Real democracy doesn't have a chance in that part of the world.
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There were plenty of woman in the protests in Egypt... Are you blind?
 
digsbe said:
The protestors are becoming violent. That is their problem and their fault.
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Wow dude. Blaming the victim makes you quite the fascist. It's not the PROTESTERS who are becoming violent; they protested peacefully for over a week. Then the Mubarak supporters ATTACKED them.

digsbe said:
Even though the president has states he will not seek reelection in September they still aren't satisfied.
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Good. Why should they be satisfied? September is eight months away...plenty of time for Mubarak to beef up the security apparatus and rig the election for whoever he wants. Or if he's feeling especially bold, suddenly change his mind about reelection once the protests have died down.

digsbe said:
My information came from friends I know who are from Egypt and have family in Egypt. One of the main proponents to power is some Islamists who is supported by the muslim brotherhood. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, I'm just going by what my Egyptian friends have unanimously told me, not by the "US Media."
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Your friends in Egypt sound like total idiots and shills for the dictator.
 
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mbig said:
Those people weren't just intellectuals and workers. (tho they interview best and ergo get on)
Many were from Egypt's VAST hoard of unemployed and ghetto dwellers who are of course dissatisfied... and again.. won't be helped by ant New govt.
Looting has been Rampant with many decent people, even those who want Mubarak gone, want an end to this.

Let's not pretend all those people who didn't make the CNN/a-j interviews were intellectual democrats.
Without growing poverty (and population), the movement wouldn't have much ground support.
The Shah not just because he was A shah, but because he didn't 'share the wealth'.

Birth rate is the biggest Determinant of Poverty in the Arab World.. only sustainable in the NON-revolting Oil rich countries because they CAN afford them.. for now.

No Riots in Saudi or Qatar. Though GDP per person is going down faster in many years than oil is going up.
Only the spike in oil and China's huge consumption support those monarchies and the social programs that keep everyone happy.
Egypt doesn't have 18K per person to give out-- otherwise.. it'd be much quieter in Cairo.. too.
THAT's What birth rate "has to do with it".
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I don't care who the CNN and al Jazeera interview, this revolution has been boiling up for years through the internet networks. The intellectual youth and the students have been calling for revolt. Check out Facebook and other social networks. Talk to Egyptian intellectuals and the most educated elite, THEY have been wanting Democracy and freedom of speech. Looting happens during any crisis, for pete's sake, which year was it when there was a huge power cut in New York ? remember the looting ?
And plus thousands of thugs and criminals were released from the prisons, by whom exactly ?



mbig said:
Unlike in the USA or Israel, the religous party would become the most dominant if not in absolute majority.
I believe the Brotherhood Party and it's proxies make up 'only' app 1/6 of the Egyptian parlialment, but still is the largest block.
Without the suppression of the Mubarak Regime this would easily double IMO, especially with help from outside forces.
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The Brotherhood makes up nothing in the Parliament, they are illegal in Egypt and have been rotting in jails. They are an opposition movement. Opposition to what ?

The Islamists all put together don't even make up 20% of the Egyptian population. If anyone has been providing socila assistance to the poor, it has been the Muslim brotherhood. They gave up violence ages ago.


mbig said:
You make light of everything you can't handle precisely beause you can't.
Which is why you only partially responded and in the Usual childish/goofy way.
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I hardly ever read his posts, what do you want me to answer to ?
 
Mira said:
...Talk to Egyptian intellectuals and the most educated elite, THEY have been wanting Democracy and freedom of speech...
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What does democracy mean to Egyptians and other Arabs? What are their expectations?
 
Mira said:
I don't care who the CNN and al Jazeera interview, this revolution has been boiling up for years through the internet networks. The intellectual youth and the students have been calling for revolt. Check out Facebook and other social networks. Talk to Egyptian intellectuals and the most educated elite, THEY have been wanting Democracy and freedom of speech.
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This is very much true of the situation in Iran, as well. Even though there are no longer active protests in the street, the young people, the tech savvy people, and the intellectuals remain committed to freedom. They are biding their time.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
This is very much true of the situation in Iran, as well. Even though there are no longer active protests in the street, the young people, the tech savvy people, and the intellectuals remain committed to freedom. They are biding their time.
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I'm really hoping that Iran will be part of this avalanche sooner or later.
 
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