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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

Hamas was voted in in legislative elections, not presidential. They then proceded to illegally (within Palestinian law) to seize control of executive functions in Gaza. As for Iran, do you truly believe that is a democracy?

I would like to see a genuine democracy in Egypt.



Remember when Democratic Philippines kicked out the US from bases in that country? And the U.S. supported the people's power movement that led to that decision...

yes i can come up with democratic allies that just love us handling their defense budgets for them, but are there any that were colonies of a western nation 60 years ago that want us there?

and don't say israel, im guessing the displaced palestinians aren't too happy about that.
 
from several of the comments listed here i get the idea that people only support democracy in the middle east if they vote in a pro-us government. the palestinians wanted hamas, oh that can't be democratic, we heard. the irannians voted in ahmadedijad, that had to be vote rigging. nevermind the fact that we don't allow elections in key countries that let us build bases such as saudi arabia and yemen. and yes we are the ones not allowing it by giving all the weapons to their despots.

you have to choose one or the other, either democratic nations that don't want our military bases, or despots that'll support our imperialism in the region. you clearly can't have both...
I support Democracy period.
However, if a country elects someone who is an anathema to our beliefs,we should do what's in OUR Countries interest in respect to them.
That might include cutting off aid or supporting a neighbor of their's in any disagreement. Same as we do elsewhere; elected or unelected.

Palestinians.. actually Gazans... were free to elect Hamas (or Germany, Hitler for that matter), but they have to live with consquences which include the USA acting in it's own interest.
 
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I support Democracy period.
However, if a country elects someone who is an anathema to our beliefs,we should do what's in OUR Countries interest in respect to them
That might include cutting off aid or supportting a neighbor of their's in any disagreement. Same as we do elsewhere.

Palestinians.. actually Gazans... were free to elect Hamas (or Germany, Hitler for that matter), but they have to live with consquences which include the USA acting in our own interest.

so that's a yes, we only respect a democracy if it's a pro US democracy. very very similar to only respecting free speech as long as it's pro government free speech.
 
so that's a yes, we only respect a democracy if it's a pro US democracy. very very similar to only respecting free speech as long as it's pro government free speech.
Incorrect.
I support Free elections Everywhere.
I don't have to endorse the results of all of them, just Recognize them as a legitimate govt. No more.
Not necessarily support them in any way.

If Canada legimately elects a govt that wants War with us? I accept/recognize it.. now..OPEN FIRE!
 
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so that's a yes, we only respect a democracy if it's a pro US democracy. very very similar to only respecting free speech as long as it's pro government free speech.

The fact that people elect various governments into power does not mean the resultant governments act on democratic principles once in power. The Nazis were a prime example of this in that they were elected, but then proceeded to completely dismantle any semblance of democracy.
 
you guys seem to be missing the point. saudi arabia's rulers actively opposes any attempt by their people to make their government accountable to them. we enable them to do that by arming them. we do the same thing in egypt, in jordan, in pakistan, yemen, etc. we did it all over south and central america since the 60's. part of supporting liberty, democracy, and self determination means not arming the brutal dictators that'll institute the policies we approve of.

in all of the recent northern african riots and subsequent self-immolations they were objecting to an oppressive government with close ties to washington. somewhere someone here has to see that us supporting a government against the wishes of their people isn't the type of freedom we want to export around the world.
 
you guys seem to be missing the point. saudi arabia's rulers actively opposes any attempt by their people to make their government accountable to them. we enable them to do that by arming them. we do the same thing in egypt, in jordan, in pakistan, yemen, etc. we did it all over south and central america since the 60's. part of supporting liberty, democracy, and self determination means not arming the brutal dictators that'll institute the policies we approve of.

in all of the recent northern african riots and subsequent self-immolations they were objecting to an oppressive government with close ties to washington. somewhere someone here has to see that us supporting a government against the wishes of their people isn't the type of freedom we want to export around the world.
1. You've been answered in full/refuted on your premise that we [posters here] don't accept election results.

2. So you've had to move the goal posts to a new issue/issues. The non-democracies we support, used to support, or must now placate.

What do You suggest in Saudi Arabia? (prez for an hour)
Activley foment/arm a revolution and maybe cut off 'our' oil for a few years destroying the planet's economy?
Or get along until they evolve.
We act in our own interest... and Yours for that matter.

We did support many Dictators in Latin America during and Because of the Cold War with the USSR.
AGAIN. We must act in our own interest with countries be they democracies or not.
Generally we are supportive ideologically to democracy, but some like Iran (whose legitimacy I question) and who is ultimately ruled by a 'Supreme leader' isn't a democracy in any case.
 
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1. You've been answered in full/refuted on your premise that we [posters here] don't accept election results.
but you don't support elections in the nations where they'd vote against our economic interests, that's conditional democracy
2. So you've had to move the goal posts to a new issue/issues. The non-democracies we support, used to support, or must now placate.

What do You suggest in Saudi Arabia? (prez for an hour)
if spreading liberty and democracy is the goal of america's forgeign policy, i'd pull the military assets out and say we'd consider bringing them back if invited back by a democratically elected government.
Activley foment/arm a revolution and maybe cut off 'our' oil for a few years destroying the planet's economy?
Or get along until they evolve.
playing in the domestic affairs of another sovereign nation is not supportive of american values. would you support a foreign entity actively persuing revolution in the US? furthermore, acting out of fear of what would happen to our economy if we don't have the saudi's precious oil is probably the dumbest foreign policy mistake the US made in 20th century, well second dumbest.
We act in our own interest... and Yours for that matter.

We did support many Dictators in Latin America during and Because of the Cold War with the USSR.
AGAIN. We must act in our own interest with countries be they democracies or not.
not sure how much of the cold war you remember or paid attention to. but that was a war against an ideology. if we have so much faith in liberty and democracy, why must we fight proxy wars against a nation with a different ideology. the cold war was once again the US fearing an ideology, and going to great lengths, up to and including trashing our ideals, for fear of an ideology. that's not conviction in your believes, this was the biggest foreign policy mistake of the 20th century.
Generally we are supportive ideologically to democracy, but some like Iran (whose legitimacy I question) and who is ultimately ruled by a 'Supreme leader' isn't a democracy in any case.

either you support and live by your values and ideals, or tell yourself you're being pragmatic and cutting your values short when they don't seem to be convenient. if you believe, as i do, that liberty and democracy is what is at america's best interest, you certainly cannot support the idea of oppressing a foreign nation so that they keep a leader that will act as we direct him.

furthermore, if you look into the history of empires such as ours, the english, the ottomans, the spanish, the portugese, the romans, etc. you'll see that their empires fall shortly after it becomes more expensive to service their debt than defend their empire. sun tzu gives alot of instruction about the dangers of spending so much resources fighting wars far from your borders. we're not heading into a good place, we won't make it out of this current situation until we're all willing to question what we think are the right decisions. just because the soviet union fell doesn't mean we were right to fight it in the way we did. just because several cave dwellers have died or stopped planning attacks on american soil doesn't mean we safer by keeping bases in 75 different foreign countries.
 
but you don't support elections in the nations where they'd vote against our economic interests, that's conditional democracy
YES I do.
As stated and elaborated above.
This is an absolute 100% Lie on your part.
Several posts elaborated this.

if spreading liberty and democracy is the goal of america's forgeign policy, i'd pull the military assets out and say we'd consider bringing them back if invited back by a democratically elected government.
Nonsense reply.
1. We have in most part already left Saudi Arabia militarily at Their request. Oooops! (for Qatar)
2. The Monarchy isn't just going to fold up their tents and leave.
You're STILL up Prez.

playing in the domestic affairs of another sovereign nation is not supportive of american values.
How do you know that?
It may very well be sometimes.
In any case, it was never suggested.. Except by YOU in suggessting we give ultimatums to non-democracies.

would you support a foreign entity actively persuing revolution in the US?
No. That's why I don't want to Ultimatum the Saudi Arabia nor Foment revolution in their country. YOUR suggestion.

not sure how much of the cold war you remember or paid attention to. but that was a war against an ideology. if we have so much faith in liberty and democracy, why must we fight proxy wars against a nation with a different ideology. the cold war was once again the US fearing an ideology, and going to great lengths, up to and including trashing our ideals, for fear of an ideology. that's not conviction in your believes, this was the biggest foreign policy mistake of the 20th century.
I remember it quite well. Unlike you I was alive for 90% of it.
Our actions then were almost excluively to stop the spread of communism even at the expense of supporting some true tyrants.
It's MY memory in fact that enables me to put our actions of the time in the Perspective OF the time. Unlike you who want to project back forgetting the situation.. THEN.

either you support and live by your values and ideals, or tell yourself you're being pragmatic and cutting your values short when they don't seem to be convenient. if you believe, as i do, that liberty and democracy is what is at america's best interest, you certainly cannot support the idea of oppressing a foreign nation so that they keep a leader that will act as we direct him.
Just plain UNTRUE.
One has principles.. but if it comes to getting your kids thru school (or not cutting the USA from oil), one does what one has to while, maintaining a moral a stand as possible.

furthermore, if you look into the history of empires such as ours, the english, the ottomans, the spanish, the portugese, the romans, etc. you'll see that their empires fall shortly after it becomes more expensive to service their debt than defend their empire. sun tzu gives alot of instruction about the dangers of spending so much resources fighting wars far from your borders. we're not heading into a good place, we won't make it out of this current situation until we're all willing to question what we think are the right decisions. just because the soviet union fell doesn't mean we were right to fight it in the way we did. just because several cave dwellers have died or stopped planning attacks on american soil doesn't mean we safer by keeping bases in 75 different foreign countries.
Fallacious and irrelevant reply. But it did add length/apparent depth to you post.
Congrats.
 
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If there's basically a coup, I doubt the new government will honor Egypt's current treaties with Israel. That will increase tensions substantially. Not really a good situation in Egypt right now, not good at all.
 
Back on Topic..

In Egypt, protests show signs of cohesion
By Sherine Bayoumi/Leila Fadel
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, January 27, 2011
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/26/AR2011012607770.html

CAIRO - The protesters who spilled onto Egypt's streets this week have given the opposition movement here characteristics that it long lacked: spontaneity and roots in many segments of society.

The demonstrations, which continued Wednesday despite a strong police presence and hundreds of arrests, drew experienced activists and those who had never marched before. There were secularists, socialists and Islamists all walking together and demanding change with a unity that for years eluded Egypt's opposition.

The new face of the opposition poses a significant challenge for President Hosni Mubarak, who has imposed sharp limits on his critics during his 30-year rule. Poor health has raised questions about Mubarak's ability to remain in office and prompted speculation that he is grooming his son to succeed him.

Marina Ottaway, director of the Middle East program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, said that there is "a great amount of discontent in Egypt" but that until now it had been "compartmentalized in three different movements" that didn't work together: a labor movement, a pro-democracy political movement and the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist group.

"Is there any indication the three groups are beginning to merge [in the demonstrations]? That is the crucial question," she said.

Tuesday's protests were called for by a number of opposition groups through social media, which had drawn only a few dozen or few hundred people when they issued similar calls in the past. This week, only a few hundred people turned up at the start. But the numbers grew quickly, as Egyptians used social networking sites to organize and drew inspiration from the fall of President Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali this month in nearby Tunisia and, on Wednesday, by images of their own people defying Egypt's repressive police Tuesday.

"The psychological barrier of fear has been broken," said Shadi Hamid, director of research for the Brookings Doha Center. "80 million Egyptians saw [Tuesday's protests]. They saw that it's okay to come out and that there is safety in numbers."

Egyptians' anger has been simmering for years in this police state, where opportunities are scarce and the gap between the poor and a small elite is growing...
 
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If there's basically a coup, I doubt the new government will honor Egypt's current treaties with Israel. That will increase tensions substantially. Not really a good situation in Egypt right now, not good at all.

And if that happened, and the U.S. broke off relations due to sucha violation of international law, some on here would claim the U.S. is opposing democracy...
 
People are forgetting that in the Islamic world they don't overthrow dictatorships, but rather exchange one dictatorship with another.

For example, in 1979 the Iranians have revolted against the Shah dictatorship and have overthrown it, only to exchange it with an Islamic dictatorship that has only taken more freedoms away from the public than the previous dictatorship had.

Now in Tunisia, they've revolted against the Ben Ali tyranny, talking about becoming a democracy and ending the dictatorship in the nation. (And Tunisia is indeed one of the most westernized Islamic states in the world)
However once they've gotten rid of the dictator what did they do? Started arresting his family members and anyone who would express support for him and his politics, including media workers and public officials.

In Lebanon it's not even rioting against dictatorship, it's a purely political conflict between two sides. They're now going to be led by an Iranian/Syrian/Hezbollah (whatever you fancy more) government.

In Egypt and Jordan the public may be arguing for more personal freedoms and a less oppressive regime, but you cannot really expect to see, in the case the regime is indeed overthrown, (and it won't be) a democratic regime taking its place. They'd merely exchange it with another dictatorship, another tyranny. Perhaps more Islamic, perhaps more tyrannical.
 
People are forgetting that in the Islamic world they don't overthrow dictatorships, but rather exchange one dictatorship with another.

For example, in 1979 the Iranians have revolted against the Shah dictatorship and have overthrown it, only to exchange it with an Islamic dictatorship that has only taken more freedoms away from the public than the previous dictatorship had.

Now in Tunisia, they've revolted against the Ben Ali tyranny, talking about becoming a democracy and ending the dictatorship in the nation. (And Tunisia is indeed one of the most westernized Islamic states in the world)
However once they've gotten rid of the dictator what did they do? Started arresting his family members and anyone who would express support for him and his politics, including media workers and public officials.

In Lebanon it's not even rioting against dictatorship, it's a purely political conflict between two sides. They're now going to be led by an Iranian/Syrian/Hezbollah (whatever you fancy more) government.

In Egypt and Jordan the public may be arguing for more personal freedoms and a less oppressive regime, but you cannot really expect to see, in the case the regime is indeed overthrown, (and it won't be) a democratic regime taking its place. They'd merely exchange it with another dictatorship, another tyranny. Perhaps more Islamic, perhaps more tyrannical.

It is a worry indeed but what's going on in Egypt, Tunisia and Algeria is a popular uprising against corruption which resulted in social injustice and poverty among the population. I know that you don't like to hear this, but this is how the first intifada started as well, a popular uprising against the Israeli regime in which case the result was a corrupt PA an d which later led to the radical Hamas government in Gaza.

I'm afraid this is what's going to happen in Egypt, perhaps a radical government and I certainly hope that I'm wrong.

Tunisia is a very open-minded country, I still have hope that they will elect a fair government but I cannot name a single politician who can run a democratic country. Only time will tell.

As to Lebanon, and I know what I'm talking about about, it is an even more open-minded country than Tunisia. The population will never accept an Islamic government, there's no way that that can happen unless there is a war with Israel in the future. Don't forget that the new PM is a Sunni supported by the Christian leader Michel Aoun and the Druze leader Walid Jumblat. He is already insisting on national unity and a close cooperation with Hariri who is refusing to participate in the future government. The new PM is simply not a Western ally. What I'm afraid of is a confrontation with Israel which will once again leave the country in shambles. if the new government will be able to avoid that, hats off. In any case, nobody in Lebanon wants a civil war. I'm only afraid that the valuable creative and active youth is going to immigrate to Western countries.
 
As for Iran, do you truly believe that is a democracy?
In comparison to where? In comparison to Saudi, it's a beacon of accountability and plurality. In comparison to Switzerland, maybe less so.
I would like to see a genuine democracy in Egypt.
Well of course, wouldn't we all, but it kind of depends on the kind of democracy you have in mind. Not everything that calls itself democracy is very democratic, not even in the West.


Remember when Democratic Philippines kicked out the US from bases in that country? And the U.S. supported the people's power movement that led to that decision...[/QUOTE]
 
Inspired by Tunisia and Egypt, Yemenis join in anti-government protests

Thousands of Yemenis took to the streets Thursday demanding an end to the government of President Ali Abdullah Saleh, who has ruled this impoverished Middle Eastern nation for more than three decades.

The rally, one of the largest demonstrations this capital has seen in recent memory, unfolded in four different neighborhoods and was inspired by the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt.

Yemen's unrest represents a widening of the upheavals unfolding across the Arab world. It poses yet another threat to the stability of this U.S. ally, which al-Qaeda militants are using as a base to target the West and its allies.

"Look at Tunisia with pride," the crowds chanted. "Yemen has strong people, too.

Inspired by Tunisia and Egypt, Yemenis join in anti-government protests

pb-110127-yemen-protest-eg.photoblog900.jpg


It's like a domino effect :shock:
 
People are forgetting that in the Islamic world they don't overthrow dictatorships, but rather exchange one dictatorship with another.

For example, in 1979 the Iranians have revolted against the Shah dictatorship and have overthrown it, only to exchange it with an Islamic dictatorship that has only taken more freedoms away from the public than the previous dictatorship had.

Now in Tunisia, they've revolted against the Ben Ali tyranny, talking about becoming a democracy and ending the dictatorship in the nation. (And Tunisia is indeed one of the most westernized Islamic states in the world)
However once they've gotten rid of the dictator what did they do? Started arresting his family members and anyone who would express support for him and his politics, including media workers and public officials.

In Lebanon it's not even rioting against dictatorship, it's a purely political conflict between two sides. They're now going to be led by an Iranian/Syrian/Hezbollah (whatever you fancy more) government.

In Egypt and Jordan the public may be arguing for more personal freedoms and a less oppressive regime, but you cannot really expect to see, in the case the regime is indeed overthrown, (and it won't be) a democratic regime taking its place. They'd merely exchange it with another dictatorship, another tyranny. Perhaps more Islamic, perhaps more tyrannical.

Perhaps. Not all revolutions against oppressive regimes are beneficial. But shouldn't we let the citizens of the country make that decision for themselves? I think that all we can do is to support democracy, insist that the revolutionaries hold elections, and hope for the best. If the new regime turns out to be repressive, we can stand with the democrats again...
 
Inspired by Tunisia and Egypt, Yemenis join in anti-government protests

It's like a domino effect :shock:

Yemen is truly a frightening place. Unlike Egypt, where there is uncertainty of what kind of regime would emerge from the chaos, in Yemen I think it's pretty clear: In the best case scenario, they get a Taliban-style government. In the worst case scenario, they get a Somalia-style anarchy. Either way it's horrible. But I'm truly at a loss for what else we can do but support their desire for democracy. Yemen's government is also very weak, like Tunisia's...but without the educated and wealthy population.
 
Yemen is truly a frightening place. Unlike Egypt, where there is uncertainty of what kind of regime would emerge from the chaos, in Yemen I think it's pretty clear: In the best case scenario, they get a Taliban-style government. In the worst case scenario, they get a Somalia-style anarchy. Either way it's horrible. But I'm truly at a loss for what else we can do but support their desire for democracy. Yemen's government is also very weak, like Tunisia's...but without the educated and wealthy population.

Very very worrying and I don't disagree with your assessment.

US should have seen this coming, especially with Yemen. It has been poor and the people have had grievances for decades. This could have been avoided
 
Egypt's ElBaradei ready for interim power

Nobel peace laureate and leading dissident Mohamed ElBaradei said Thursday he was ready to "lead the transition" in Egypt if asked, as he left Vienna for Cairo where he was due to join in mass anti-government protests.

"If people, in particularly young people, if they want me to lead the transition I will not let them down," ElBaradei, the former head of the UN nuclear watchdog, told journalists at Vienna airport.

"My priority right now is to see a new Egypt and to see a new Egypt through peaceful transition," he added.

ElBaradei was due to take part in mass demonstrations against President Hosni Mubarak's government on Friday.

"I have to provide them with spiritual and political support," he said of the protesters.
"My goal is obviously to make sure that things will go in an orderly and peaceful way... I am going there to be with them."

Pro-democracy activists vowed on Thursday to step up the largest anti-government protests in Egypt in three decades, despite mass arrests and mammoth security.

ElBaradei ready to 'lead the transition' in Egypt if asked

Not quite the Islamist people feared but there is still time.
 
Opposition Planning
Opposition Planning ‘Something Big’ for Friday, Says Egyptian Journalist
Cecily Hilleary January 26, 2011

Sourced above is Wael Abbas. Google him for his Blog, Twitter, etc.
Many recent videos as well.

ss-110126-egypt-bloggers-10.grid-7x2.JPG

Meeting where they can
Egypt has the largest and most active blogosphere in the Arab world, and their work is done at great personal risk, facing arrest, prison, torture -- and even death, in some cases, says British photojournalist Anastasia Taylor-Lind, who is based in the Middle East. In this photo, the 'godfather' of Egyptian bloggers Wael Abbas, right, with fellow activists Kareem El Behiry, center, and Ahmed El Sayad, left, at Al Borsah Cafe in downtown Cairo, Egypt in 2010. Many bloggers are the children of Cairo’s intellectuals, radicals and activists and they gather late into the night in the shabby downtown street cafes their parents inhabited in the 1960s and 70s. (Anastasia Taylor-Lind / VII Mentor
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41285248/ns/technology_and_science-tech_and_gadgets/

Also looks like my previous posts pointing to ElBaradei - are getting more likely.
He has offered himself as interim leader.
 
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Tomorrow could be make or break for the movement.

ElBaradei back home as Egyptians brace for Friday protests - CNN.com
1/27/11
Cairo, Egypt -- On the eve of massive displays of anti-government ferment across the world's most populous Arab nation, opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei arrived in Cairo and said "there is no going back" on change.

ElBaradei, the Egyptian Nobel laureate, said people have taken to the streets because they "realize the regime is not listening, not acting."

"The barrier of fear is broken," ElBaradei said after he arrived in Egypt from Europe on Thursday. "And it will not come back."

The county has been bracing for a huge outpouring of protests after Friday prayers.

The Muslim Brotherhood has called for its followers to demonstrate after the weekly Muslim prayers, the first time in the current round of unrest that the largest opposition bloc has told supporters to take to the streets.

Now ElBaradei has said he will take part in the protests and passed along "advice to the regime: It's now the time to listen to the people. Make an innocent collective change."

He called for demonstrations to be peaceful...

Btw.
WHERE IS MUBARRAK?
No TV speeches, nada.
 
Yemen is also having problems with more people in the streets daily

Egyptians brace for Friday protests as internet, messaging disrupted - CNN.com

Cairo, Egypt -- Hours ahead of what are expected to be Massive displays of anti-government ferment across the world's most populous Arab nation, the internet went dark in parts of Egypt early Friday, and text messaging appeared to be blocked.

The Muslim Brotherhood has called for its followers to demonstrate after weekly Muslim prayers on Friday, the first time in the current round of unrest that the largest opposition bloc has told supporters to take to the streets.

Egyptian authorities arrested a prominent Muslim Brotherhood leader in Friday pre-dawn hours, detaining the party's main speaker, Issam al-Aryan, according to his son-in-law....
 
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This is not gonna end in the way we want it.. The Muslim Brotherhood have seen their chance and are going to seize if they can and that will be very very bad for everyone.
 
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