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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Mubarak said he plans to "die on Egyptian soil".

    I think it can be arranged.
    Yeah...He's going to get himself executed if he isn't careful. His speech last night looked a lot like Nicolae Ceasescu's address to the Romanian people from his balcony.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Economist rates Iraq a 4.00 on their 10-point "Democracy Index." That's not considered a full democracy or even a flawed democracy. It's the bare minimum score that can even be considered a democratic-autocratic hybrid state. Iraq scores lower than Russia and just barely above Cuba on the Democracy Index.

    Iraq may have a Parliament and Prime Minister (finally), but it's hardly a "democratic democracy" which serves as a good role model for other Arab states. Furthermore, Iraq is sitting on top of oil whereas Tunisia and Egypt are not. I cannot overemphasize how important oil is, as a retarding force on democratic development. Tunisia and Egypt should be able to do far better than Iraq.
    Iraq does serve as a valuable object lesson of "what not to do." The middle eastern states hardly need to look to Iraq as an example of a secular democracy. They have Turkey and Indonesia, both of which are far better case studies in how a nation can be both Islamic and democractic.

    Our nation building efforts in Iraq were hugely flawed and have yet to pay off. They were well-intentioned, but in retrospect, have not succeeded, perhaps because of flaws in execution and planning, as well as flaws in the expectation of what would happen, on the ground, when we arrived, along with flaws in our treatment of the Iraqi army.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 02-02-11 at 10:32 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Oh, they all fought for it. But you seem to be of the opinion that it would take the US to invade in order to create a Democracy hence your stupid comment about letting the Americans in.
    Seem to be of the opinion?

    You make a very foolish statement and then have to guess at my opinion, despite them being right out there?

    HAving the US invade anywhere in the Middle East is a non-starter.

    The only way anythng could possible improve in the ME would be to ask for some ouutside help and advice, which will also never happen.

    So we will therefore see more killings, like the ones Laila is calling for, more political upheavals, and more deaths.

    And no democracy.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Iraq does serve as a valuable object lesson of "what not to do." The middle eastern states hardly need to look to Iraq as an example of a secular democracy. They have Turkey and Indonesia, both of which are far better case studies in how a nation can be both Islamic and democractic.

    Our nation building efforts in Iraq were hugely flawed and have yet to pay off. They were well-intentioned, but in retrospect, have not succeeded, perhaps because of flaws in execution and planning, as well as flaws in the expectation of what would happen, on the ground, when we arrived, along with flaws in our treatment of the Iraqi army.
    You seem to be assuming that changing from an absolute dictatorship to qa functional and thriving democracy is a rapid process, if only because it seems so natural to you.

    But there are stops and starts, all sorts of problems along the way, just as there has been in many European nations.

    Another poster gave Iraq a rating of 4 earlier on the democratic scale which is not so bad. It's a start from Zero and probably one of the higher numbers in the region.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You seem to be assuming that changing from an absolute dictatorship to qa functional and thriving democracy is a rapid process, if only because it seems so natural to you.
    I don't assume that at all. I understand that it took almost 9 years from the end of the Revolutionary War for the new United States of America to successfully create and implement a constitution.

    However, you can't force democracy on other people. The Iraqi people have to WANT IT. They have to want it so badly that they will kill or die for it. Democracy can't be handed to someone like a beautifully wrapped gift. They have to earn it, they have to build it, and they have to continually sacrifice to maintain it.

    Iraq probably will never get there, because we (America) attempted to force the process without even understanding what they wanted and who they are. And, if they do get there, it won't be because of our stupidity and interference.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You think not? It was the WHOLE POINT of us doing so. To democratize the Middle East. It is working.
    I agree, but we still have to wait and see if the new governments are actually democracies and not just more of the same-ol- same-ol.

    I'm not as optimistic as some folks on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    In other words, they where Democracies but flawed in nature. And Thank you.
    Except you didn't say they were "flawed". And of curse a struggling democracy is always better than an efficiecient dictatorship.

    .And your comment about Western Europe shows a lack of political knowledge on your behalf. No room for unsubstantiated garbage here.
    Excuse me??? Are you saying the European nations went directly from monarchies and dictatorships to democracies without lives being lost? Or the struggle against Communism and Fascism?

    Do they not teach you French history in the UK anymore?


    And i didnt say i preferred Saddam. Just dont try and sell Iraq as a regional role model.
    Do you see any riots going on in Baghdad? In fact it is a good role model for other ME nations. Which other would serve better?

    The bulk of the operations have, and the war there has more or less come to an end. Americans are there to support the security situation, you know what i mean.
    But that's not what you said though, was it? You said the Americans have left, which shows you know as much about that area of the world as you do about European history. It's not smart to guess at history or current events.




    My news source is the CNN among many others.
    You might want to consider an upgrade.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Al Jazeera live! Go go.

    Pro/Anti Mubarak protesters are fighting and it's getting violent and the army is not intervening! Many injured
    Wait! You mean that not everyone in Egypt wants Mubarack out?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You seem to be assuming that changing from an absolute dictatorship to qa functional and thriving democracy is a rapid process, if only because it seems so natural to you.

    But there are stops and starts, all sorts of problems along the way, just as there has been in many European nations.

    Another poster gave Iraq a rating of 4 earlier on the democratic scale which is not so bad. It's a start from Zero and probably one of the higher numbers in the region.
    It is one of the higher numbers in the region...but not by much. Certainly not by enough to justify a war to promote it there. If we merely wanted to help democratize a country to serve as a shining example of Arab democracy, Iraq was just about the worst choice: It has large oil reserves, a low GDP per capita, and sectarian conflicts. We would have been far better off picking one of the ones that is revolting now: Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan.

    Here are the Democracy Index scores for all Arab states:

    Lebanon 5.82
    Palestine 5.44
    Iraq 4.00
    Kuwait 3.88
    Mauritania 3.86
    Morocco 3.79
    Jordan 3.74
    Bahrain 3.49
    Algeria 3.44
    Qatar 3.09
    Egypt 3.07
    Oman 2.86
    Tunisia 2.79
    Yemen 2.64
    United Arab Emirates 2.52
    Sudan 2.42
    Syria 2.31
    Libya 1.94
    Saudi Arabia 1.84


    And here are the Democracy Indices of some non-Arab states for comparison:

    Denmark 9.52
    United States 8.18
    India 7.28
    Turkey 5.73
    Russia 4.26
    China 3.14
    North Korea 1.08
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-02-11 at 11:40 AM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    True enough, although Hamas got significantly more than 50% of the vote somehow.... mmmm.....
    Yes they did, sadly.
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