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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    I think there just humiliated and in-denial about the fact that a lack of bread subsidies and high food prices inspired Arabs more than any American invasion ever would.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    I think there just humiliated and in-denial about the fact that a lack of bread subsidies and high food prices inspired Arabs more than any American invasion ever would.
    indeed.

    This is a home grown revolution. An Arab one, one not imported by the US.
    That is what Egyptians and Tunisians are most proud about.
    High youth unemployment, food prices, the violence of the police against the people, the corruption and the sparks which I mentioned triggered this.

    Iraq had nothing to do with this
    Notice the Egyptians yesterday chanted in Arabic 'From Tunisia to Egypt' in the square. Tunisian flags are waved
    Last edited by Laila; 02-02-11 at 08:58 AM.


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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Your defining Iraq but its electoral process. The sad reality is, the media is not free and political dissent is still not tolerated. The Americans left Iraq with a C-grade Democracy.
    Of course a democracy is much more than elections - my point. Autocracies that hold elections, yet have no significant division of power between Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches and all the supporting institutions, including civilian control of the military, are not democracies. I already addressed free media and political dissent in Iraq - it is there. Iraq has a real power-sharing democracy. My only disappointment is that it is parliamentary rather than a presidential system and their coalition building and government formation is a real exercise in patience.


    Nothing about Iraq's transition was peaceful. I suspect Iraq would be the last role model. It was forced onto them and thousands died in the process and continue to do so. Tunisians and Egyptians seek stability, security and freedom - all which are severely lacking in Iraq.
    Yeah, I went back a deleted the word, peaceful. It was not. Of course, given the recent events in Egypt's Tahrir Square that Laila pointed out to us (last 15 minutes), there is indeed the potential for violence in Egypt. The blood must be shed for freedom.

    The only role model in the region i can think of is Turkey. Its rapid rise in the Arab world has grabbed the attention of many in the region of its strong Democratic system, economy and its peaceful kemalist transition to Democracy. But Iraq - absolutely not.
    Turkey is not Arabic.

    Iraq is a shattered nation. Its political sphere developed reluctantly after US pressure and months of bickering over a coalition government which won Iraq the "longest ever period to form a government" award. Politically it is deadlocked, demographically it is divided, economically it is crippled and the only unified force in the works in that country is Al Qaeda.

    Please dont kid yourself.
    And yet it moves forward as documented by the many Iraqi newspapers I pointed you too.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    I agree with you, only claims that Iraq inspired Tunisia and Egypt is unfounded and off mark.
    Oh? So now you agree with me? Indeed we took an unexpected turn when, instead of doing a deal with Saddam we invaded and created a democracy out of Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds. Another BIG reason most of the Arab world hated us for doing what we did is that we tore down a Sunni run country and effectively gave it to the Shiites, since they are the majority.

    There should be no question that what we did in Iraq has SIGNIFICANTLY influenced democratization movements in the rest of the ME (Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, .... so far ....).

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Al Jazeera has mentioned that many are saying it is plain clothed police men who are inciting violence in an attempt to get the Army to crack down

    Edit: Rocks are being thrown .... women and children hiding behind tanks :/
    Smh. Wtf, did I just see camels and horses storming the public :O

    Also happening beyond the square in side streets leading to Tahir .... Pro Mubarak protesters tried to form human chain to stop Anti Government protesters entering the square

    This has Mubarak written all over him. He is trying to show how Egypt is a mess without him.

    Edit ... A Al Arabiya reporter stabbed
    Last edited by Laila; 02-02-11 at 09:11 AM.


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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    +1000

    Iraq had little to do with this.
    The spark for Tunisia's revolution was the humiliation of that poor Tunisian who burned himself alive in despair as a result which angered the people.
    The trigger for Egypt in some part is due to Tunisia
    Yes, the spark and the demonstrations are internal. The model remains Iraq. They can achieve it themselves, with appropriate diplomatic influence to try and prevent government security forces from stamping it out. Tunisia is definitely an example for Egypt. But behind it all is Iraq.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    I think there just humiliated and in-denial about the fact that a lack of bread subsidies and high food prices inspired Arabs more than any American invasion ever would.
    More sparks and triggers. Autocratic regimes cannot take care of their people. It has set the conditions. Still Iraq is the model that it can be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    indeed.

    This is a home grown revolution. An Arab one, one not imported by the US.
    That is what Egyptians and Tunisians are most proud about.
    High youth unemployment, food prices, the violence of the police against the people, the corruption and the sparks which I mentioned triggered this.

    Iraq had nothing to do with this
    Notice the Egyptians yesterday chanted in Arabic 'From Tunisia to Egypt' in the square. Tunisian flags are waved
    Those are triggers, and for sure no one is going to claim that they see Iraq and they want the same. But they do. Iraq had everything to do with this.

    Of course, Iraq happened because US policy to ME dictatorships changed after 9/11, so ultimately you can credit the incredible brilliance of geopolitical strategy of Osama bin Laden. It was his stated objective for 9/11 - change the US policy toward ME autocrats.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 02-02-11 at 09:12 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    When the hell is the military going to get involved?!

    It's just standing on the sidelines watching this.
    WTF!! The Pro Mubarak protesters are attempting to get closer and enter the square ... if they get into it, those hundreds of Pro M. will meet thousands of Anti Government protesters. They'll get beaten to death.

    Edit: The Anti Government protesters tried getting away from violence and were met in the side streets by Pro Mubarak protesters who were armed with stones and knives.
    The police is also involved and behind much of the violence against the AGP's.
    Confirmed police ID's on their bodies on AJ

    Disgusting. I hope Egyptians call for Mubarak's lynching and death for this.
    Last edited by Laila; 02-02-11 at 09:23 AM.


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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Of course a democracy is much more than elections - my point. Autocracies that hold elections, yet have no significant division of power between Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches and all the supporting institutions, including civilian control of the military, are not democracies.
    Thats not a universally accepted definition of a Democracy.

    I already addressed free media and political dissent in Iraq - it is there. Iraq has a real power-sharing democracy.
    Free media is not there and political dissent still draws an eerie eye from the government.

    Yeah, I went back a deleted the word, peaceful. It was not. Of course, given the recent events in Egypt's Tahrir Square that Laila pointed out to us (last 15 minutes), there is indeed the potential for violence in Egypt. The blood must be shed for freedom.
    Domestic issues inspired them. This is nothing but an Egyptian and Tunisian revolt. I suppose every pro-Democratic movement in the ME is of course American and Iraqi inspired.

    The suggestion is an insult to my intelligence. In light of your lack of evidence, did you ever think that maybe all political groups in Egypt (as they have repeatedly stated) are just sick of being oppressed and living like animals?

    Thats to say the current demonstrations would not have happened if Saddam was still in power, right? All of this is unsubstantiated and ill say it again, there is nothing special about Iraq that would make it a role model. The country is ruined and democratically its C-grade.

    Turkey is not Arabic.
    I think i would know <<
    Is Democracy exclusive to race? That is an irrelevant statement. Iraq is NOT the role model here.

    And yet it moves forward as documented by the many Iraqi newspapers I pointed you too.
    What ones?

    Oh? So now you agree with me? Indeed we took an unexpected turn when, instead of doing a deal with Saddam we invaded and created a democracy out of Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds. Another BIG reason most of the Arab world hated us for doing what we did is that we tore down a Sunni run country and effectively gave it to the Shiites, since they are the majority.
    Or maybe because you handed them a country that is more unstable than it has ever been at any point of its existence?
    The US invaded Iraq with the mindset that they where doing it selflessly for the Iraqi's. In reality they merely destroyed any chance of a homegrown revolution that would have created a unified Iraqi made Democracy instead of the mess we see today.

    There should be no question that what we did in Iraq has SIGNIFICANTLY influenced democratization movements in the rest of the ME (Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, .... so far ....).
    Wrong. All these countries have made reforms in light of what has happened in North Africa. Naturally, they are pissing themselves it could happen in there own nations.

    Hell, the only nation i can think of that is remotely close to having inspired the revolts outside of said nation is Tunisia.

    Bread and food inspired the revolution, not the US. Sorry.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 02-02-11 at 09:23 AM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    When the hell is the military going to get involved?!

    It's just standing on the sidelines watching this.
    WTF!! The Pro Mubarak protesters are attempting to get closer and enter the square ... if they get into it, those hundreds of Pro M. will meet thousands of Anti Government protesters. They'll get beaten to death.
    Everyone should just calm down and invite the Americans in to come strighten it all out.

    But "Arab pride" will ensure that will never happen so there will be more killings, more riots, more property destroyed and utltimately more of the same way it's always been.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    When the hell is the military going to get involved?!

    It's just standing on the sidelines watching this.
    WTF!! The Pro Mubarak protesters are attempting to get closer and enter the square ... if they get into it, those hundreds of Pro M. will meet thousands of Anti Government protesters. They'll get beaten to death.

    Edit: The Anti Government protesters tried getting away from violence and were met in the side streets by Pro Mubarak protesters who were armed with stones and knives.
    The police is also involved and behind much of the violence against the AGP's.
    Confirmed police ID's on their bodies on AJ

    Disgusting. I hope Egyptians call for Mubarak's lynching and death for this.
    Mubarak said he plans to "die on Egyptian soil".

    I think it can be arranged.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Everyone should just calm down and invite the Americans in to come strighten it all out.

    But "Arab pride" will ensure that will never happen so there will be more killings, more riots, more property destroyed and utltimately more of the same way it's always been.
    Mubarak needs to get killed. That is what Egyptians need to do.

    Using the police to instigate violence against civilians is just absolutely ... urgh. I can't even express my anger

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Mubarak said he plans to "die on Egyptian soil".

    I think it can be arranged.
    LOL
    Indeed.
    A public hanging, anyone?


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