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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You think not? It was the WHOLE POINT of us doing so. To democratize the Middle East. It is working.
    There where democracies in the ME long before Iraq became one. But just like Iraq now, they were not "democratic" democracies.

    The Tunisians did not take Iraq as a role model when they revolted against Ben Ali. Nor did the Egyptians. There demonstrations are as a result of decades long poverty and political oppression. The movement started from within and it reached out across the political divide.

    Oh and the Americans may have implemented a democracy in Iraq, but it doesn't mean its a very good democracy. Its shabby and political dissent is still crushed. The media is censored and its a controversy to speak out against government institutions.

    The Americans have come and gone but in reality very little has changed in the region. The only thing it has inspired is a culture of anti-US hatred.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 02-02-11 at 08:33 AM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    There where democracies in the ME long before Iraq became one. But just like Iraq now, they were not "democratic" democracies.
    Lebanon is the only one and it's history of civil war and external powers involving themselves in their affairs made it no model for other autocracies to follow. Furthermore, Iraq is certainly a "democratic" democracy and not an autocracy with the fig leaf of elections.

    The Tunisians did not take Iraq as a role model when they revolted against Ben Ali. Nor did the Egyptians. There demonstrations are as a result of there decades long poverty and political oppression. It has nothing to do with the US.
    The Tunisians and the Egyptians will absolutely use Iraq as a model for how peacefully transform from an autocracy to a healthy democracy. Of course the demonstrations are a result of their condition, like the Iraqis before them. 7 years of watching the political sphere develop in Iraq, through Al Jazeera for instance, has had a profound impact on the development of popular political will through the rest of the ME. This has translated directly into these demonstrations.

    Iraq is a model of democratization for the ME and has kicked off current events.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 02-02-11 at 08:37 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    There where democracies in the ME long before Iraq became one. But just like Iraq now, they were not "democratic" democracies.
    So there were democracies in the Middle East but these democracies weren't democratic. Good analysis.
    The Tunisians did not take Iraq as a role model when they revolted against Ben Ali. Nor did the Egyptians. There demonstrations are as a result of decades long poverty and political oppression. The movement started from within and it reached out across the political divide.
    So all of this is just a series of coincidences?

    Oh and the Americans may have implemented a democracy in Iraq, but it doesn't mean its a very good democracy. Its shabby and political dissent is still crushed. The media is censored and its a controversy to speak out against government institutions.
    You can say the same thing of Western Europe nations. You preferred the previous democracy in Iraq? You apparently know little of what is going on in Iraq,

    The Americans have come and gone but in reality very little has changed in the region.
    Suspicions confirmed. The Americans have not gone. That would be the British. Which 'region has not changed? Iraq?
    The only thing it has inspired is a culture of anti-US hatred.
    Again, you're thinking of the BBC and the British.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Lebanon is the only one and it's history of civil war and external powers involving themselves in their affairs made it no model for other autocracies to follow. Furthermore, Iraq is certainly a "democratic" democracy and not an autocracy with the fig leaf of elections.
    Your defining Iraq but its electoral process. The sad reality is, the media is not free and political dissent is still not tolerated. The Americans left Iraq with a C-grade Democracy.

    The Tunisians and the Egyptians will absolutely use Iraq as a model for how peacefully transform from an autocracy to a healthy democracy.
    Nothing about Iraq's transition was peaceful. I suspect Iraq would be the last role model. It was forced onto them and thousands died in the process and continue to do so. Tunisians and Egyptians seek stability, security and freedom - all which are severely lacking in Iraq.

    The only role model in the region i can think of is Turkey. Its rapid rise in the Arab world has grabbed the attention of many in the region of its strong Democratic system, economy and its peaceful kemalist transition to Democracy. But Iraq - absolutely not.

    Of course the demonstrations are a result of their condition, like the Iraqis before them. 7 years of watching the political sphere peacefully develop in Iraq, through Al Jazeera for instance, has had a profound impact on the development of popular political will through the rest of the ME. This has translated directly into these demonstrations.
    Iraq is a shattered nation. Its political sphere developed reluctantly after US pressure and months of bickering over a coalition government which won Iraq the "longest ever period to form a government" award. Politically it is deadlocked, demographically it is divided, economically it is crippled and the only unified force in the works in that country is Al Qaeda.

    Please dont kid yourself.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Al Jazeera live! Go go.

    Pro/Anti Mubarak protesters are fighting and it's getting violent and the army is not intervening! Many injured


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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    The movement started from within and it reached out across the political divide.

    Oh and the Americans may have implemented a democracy in Iraq, but it doesn't mean its a very good democracy. Its shabby and political dissent is still crushed. The media is censored and its a controversy to speak out against government institutions.

    The Americans have come and gone but in reality very little has changed in the region. The only thing it has inspired is a culture of anti-US hatred.
    Of course these movements start from within. Again the point of democratizing Iraq.

    The Iraqis formed the democracy with our guidance. It was the Iraqis who formed a legislative body to construct a constitution that the entire population of Iraq ratified. It is a shabby and tumultuous democracy, like ours. Political dissent is not crushed. There is little censoring of media (number of Iraqi newspapers). They absolutely speak out against the powers that be. It is, however, a very young democracy with lots of big problems to solve (Kirkuk, Sunnis, oil revenue sharing, ...)

    Anti-US sentiment predated Iraq. I agree that our actions in Iraq fostered more Anti-US sentiment, primarily because Arabs think they ought to be able to do this on their own - well, now look at them. The other reason for anti-US sentiment is the touchstone Osama bin Laden used, that we support and prop up autocracies. Well, no longer.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So there were democracies in the Middle East but these democracies weren't democratic. Good analysis.
    In other words, they where Democracies but flawed in nature. And Thank you.

    So all of this is just a series of coincidences?
    Nothing coincidental about it.


    You can say the same thing of Western Europe nations. You preferred the previous democracy in Iraq? You apparently know little of what is going on in Iraq,
    Likewise, there WAS NO Democracy in Iraq "previously".
    And your comment about Western Europe shows a lack of political knowledge on your behalf. No room for unsubstantiated garbage here.
    And i didnt say i preferred Saddam. Just dont try and sell Iraq as a regional role model.


    Suspicions confirmed. The Americans have not gone. That would be the British. Which 'region has not changed? Iraq?
    The bulk of the operations have, and the war there has more or less come to an end. Americans are there to support the security situation, you know what i mean.

    Again, you're thinking of the BBC and the British.
    My news source is the CNN among many others.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Of course these movements start from within. Again the point of democratizing Iraq.

    The Iraqis formed the democracy with our guidance. It was the Iraqis who formed a legislative body to construct a constitution that the entire population of Iraq ratified. It is a shabby and tumultuous democracy, like ours. Political dissent is not crushed. There is little censoring of media (number of Iraqi newspapers). They absolutely speak out against the powers that be. It is, however, a very young democracy with lots of big problems to solve (Kirkuk, Sunnis, oil revenue sharing, ...)

    Anti-US sentiment predated Iraq. I agree that our actions in Iraq fostered more Anti-US sentiment, primarily because Arabs think they ought to be able to do this on their own - well, now look at them. The other reason for anti-US sentiment is the touchstone Osama bin Laden used, that we support and prop up autocracies. Well, no longer.
    I agree with you, only claims that Iraq inspired Tunisia and Egypt is unfounded and off mark.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    I agree with you, only claims that Iraq inspired Tunisia and Egypt is unfounded and off mark.
    +1000

    Iraq had little to do with this.
    The spark for Tunisia's revolution was the humiliation of that poor Tunisian who burned himself alive in despair as a result which angered the people.
    The trigger for Egypt in some part is due to Tunisia


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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Al Jazeera. Military is getting involved, weapons is being drawn but not firing and soldiers trying to restore order into the square.

    Stupid pro Mubarak protesters.


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