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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #711
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Israel's defenses and military are well entrenched in a relatively smal amount of land with a number of decades of history in defending said location and a track record of successfully doing so time and time again.
    IOW, you haven't even looked at a map of the region to see how Israel could be totally cut off from the rest of the world and left to fend for themselves. You probably didn't take into consideration the short period of time that it would take agressor forces to move from Israel's eastern border, to the Med, which wouldn't shrink Israel's time window with which they have to react to any such movements. Close the Red Sea, the Suez Canal and set up a naval blockade on Israel's coast and what that adds up to, is Israel is in deep poo-poo.

    We're not talking about American M-60's going head to head with Soviet T-54's, this time. Don't forget, Egypt now possesses American M-1 MBT's. With the help of the United States, the IDF had the Arabs outgunned in '67 and '73. The Arabs have caught up, by now. They've had 40 years to plan. Between that and the fact that Israel damn near lost in '73, I think you're optimism is misplaced.



    I think you're acting an utter fool here if you think your hypothetical could happen, IE the slaughter of "hundreds of thousands" of Israeli's which would likely mean that a large number of civilians are getting killed let alone the tactical problems you're suggesting, while our government did literally nothing to come to their aid. You're letting your hyper partisan tendancies blind you from looking at a situation honestly and legitimately, but then again I'm being redundant as that is the standard for how hyper partisans view most political issues.
    So, since you obviously can't provide an informed argument as to why I'm wrong, you're just going to call me a fool?



    Really. Perhaps you can point me to all the historical situations where countries have killed hundreds of thousands of Israeli's, took over their entire country, and held the world hostage. I'm apparently missing that "historical knowledge".
    No one had ever invaded most of Europe, taken over their countries and murdered millions of people, either...before it happened. You seem to think that just because an event has never happened, that it's impossible for it to happen in the future.

    No, sorry, history is in my favor on this one.
    Actually, it isn't, but you can believe that, if it makes you feel better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  2. #712
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    what is going on in egypt is a narrative of history when people get a belly full they do something about it. it will happen here you wait and see.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I have no problem with democracy at all. What are you afraid of, elections are scheduled in Egypt in September so why overthrow the govt. now?
    Because those haven't historically been real elections, and the people of Egypt have a right to have their own chosen representatives. Democracy doesn't have to happen on a schedule.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    A problem with this thinking is that currently there are defined representatives of the people. Egypt is a nation of 80 million. The demonstrations have been held by perhaps hundreds of thousands of people. Sort of like the tea party if they went into the streets and asked for a change in government would Obama resign?

    No doubt change has been long overdue in Egypt, but it would be better for an orderly transition so that the the most violent people get to take over like they did in Iran.

    You may notice that the governments in the most trouble ( egypt and Jordan) are aligned with the U.S. while probably the worst actor against its people, Syria has no such problems.
    Those people aren't selected by the people of Egypt. So, they don't represent the people of Egypt. They work for a thug and a dictator.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Because those haven't historically been real elections, and the people of Egypt have a right to have their own chosen representatives. Democracy doesn't have to happen on a schedule.
    You be sure and let us know when the Muslim Brotherhood holds, "real", elections.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Let's look at this, though, Zyphlin.

    Some people have said "You can't spread democracy because it must come from the people themselves. It can't be something that gets 'installed' by force. Installing a democracy is a contradiction in terms".

    That's a position which is consistent with wanting to see Egypt become a deomcarcy due to what is currently happening. One can desire a spead of democracy while simultaneously acknowledging that it must spread from within, not be installed from without.

    So comparing the two stances isn't entirely accurate.
    It's especially not applicable when pointed at me, because I'm no peacenik. I did not believe that U.S. intervention was warranted in Iran, and I worried that being too heavy handed would actually hurt the green revolution more than it helped. We didn't do enough, but it's a fine line.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You be sure and let us know when the Muslim Brotherhood holds, "real", elections.
    Are we now pretending that you have ESP and can predict the future reliably? I'd suggest that your posts on this board say otherwise.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    That one is. On the flip side, others said they wanted to install a democracy not because people deserved freedom but because it best helped our security interests. That ALSO is consistant across both sides here.
    I would argue that installing a US-friendly government in Iraq is somewhat different from installing a democracy, but if someone is in favor of installing such a US-friendly government, it would be consistent across both sides, definitely.

    However, there were some that were adamant about us simply staying out of other peoples business, that its not the U.S.'s job to push for Democracy or freedom, and we need to keep our noses out of middle eastern affairs.
    Actually, that would be consistent with wanting to stay out of the Egypt situation, too. If someone who said this has now said that we should meddle with Egypt and help the people there with their revolution, that would be an inconsistent viewpoint. But if they say "So be it. We should stay out of it and let things happen as they happen" they are being consistent.

    There were also those that argued that giving them democracy and freedom, regardless of its positive effect on the U.S.'s security, was a legitimate reason to act in Iraq.
    I can't say for sure, but the nature of that argument leads me to believe that anyone who felt that way with Iraq would feel the same way with Egypt. If they didn't, I'd be very curious as to there reasoning fo rthe difference.

    Those type of arguments are more the ones I'm speaking to. There CAN be legitimately consistant arguments for supporting establishing democracy in Iraq but not here, and vise versa. But not everyone necessarily used those arguments.
    I don't think it's possible to support establishing a democracy in Iraq but not here in a consistent manner. I can see some consistency, though, in supporting a revolution ni Iraq but nort here. The catching point is that one would not really be supporting democracy in Iraq so much as they supported establishing a US-friendly government there.

    In otehr words, it's possible to be consistent while having supported OIF and supportin gth ecurrent Egyptian regime, but it cannot be done consistently while using a "spread democracy" argument.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Israel has one of the strongest militaries in the world, one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world, and is in a very defensible position all while having a close ally that is the strongest military in the world. I think taking your hypothetical seriously is the equivilent of taking the hypothetical of what the ramifications would be if the Park View Patriots of the AA Division for Virginia High School Football blows out the New England Patriots by 40 points while shattering Tom Brady's femur.
    In a straight up/one-on-one battle with Egypt's current military, I agree.

    But the longer term and larger term, wider, geo=strategic situation for Israel is not good, abd defsnsibel only in a retalaitory/MAD sense.

    While Egypt won't become part of the 'Shia crescent', this could 'close the circle'on Israel. With Iran to the West, Syria and Iran-backed Hezbollah to the North, and now a possibly Egypt and Egypt-supported Hamas to the West.

    Even without Egypt Israel was/is vulnerble to a large and sumultaneous [even] non-nuclear missile attack. Raining thousand of high-explosive or other damaging payloads on it with Minutes. Staring with only a few minutes warning in the case of Syria, and over with 20-30 with missles from Iran. Add in a motivated Egypt and Arabs could destroy most of tiny Israel that counts quickly.
    Coventional warafre you speak of would only be a remnant in this case.

    I see the above scenario possible and within 2-3 years. There really is no defense except 'MAD'.

    More later -posting with with weal travelling mobile onnection.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Because those haven't historically been real elections, and the people of Egypt have a right to have their own chosen representatives. Democracy doesn't have to happen on a schedule.
    Didn't we have a real election in other countries of the region under Islamic control? How far are you willing to go to promote democracy? Does that include supporting the people of Iran who protested the fraudulent elections? What step will you support if the Egypt elections after the overthrow of the govt. are proven to be fraudulent like Iran's?

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