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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Israel has one of the strongest militaries in the world, one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world, and is in a very defensible position
    Explain to us, from a tactical and strategic standpoint, how Israel is in a, "defensible position". IMO, they're couldn't be in a worse position, for defense.

    while having a close ally that is the strongest military in the world.
    If that allie chooses to deploy forces to support them. I don't see that as being realistic, with our current government.


    I think taking your hypothetical seriously is the equivilent of taking the hypothetical of what the ramifications would be if the Park View Patriots of the AA Division for Virginia High School Football blows out the New England Patriots by 40 points while shattering Tom Brady's femur.
    That statement proves that you lack the historical knowledge to understand just how realistic my hypothetical is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Which is why an invasion by Egypt is never going to happen.
    It happened twice before. It can happen again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Indefinitely? Elections scheduled for Sept. 2011 in Egypt
    Yes, indefinitely, since the Egyptian elections are as legitimate as the ones in Venezuela recently.

    Or do you think that Chavez is a legitimately elected Leader?

    I asked what if you are wrong. Who fills the vacuum of leadership in Egypt?
    What do you mean if I'm wrong? If I'm wrong that the people over throw the government? Then Mubarak keeps tenuous grasp of the country.

    Right, just like we have dealt with Iran. Are the people better off in Iran than they were prior to radical Islam taking over? It is a lot easier protesting for your freedom than it is actually getting your freedom. Think that Iranians are free?
    I don't think the Iranian are massively better off then before, I don't think they're amazingly worse off than before either. I also think generally though giving aid to people attempting to fight for democracy and are on the verge of it is better than just initiating and causing it yourself. We could've been France to Iran's Green Revolution, instead Obama sat on his ass.

    Not to mention we didn't install a real democracy in Iran when you're talking about, we just traded one essential dictator for another.

    very revolution in the region started out with the demand for freedom and democracy and look who stepped in. I suggest better research on racial Islam and their goal
    Please, point me out specific revolutions that demanded Democracy. Since you're far more versed in your research, I'm sure you can point me at specifics.

    I care about the security of this country and stopping radical Islam. What exactly do you care about?
    Gotcha. So you weren't going on and on years back about "spreading democracy" and "spreading freedom" with regards to Iraq then? As long as your consistant.

    I care about the security of this country as well. I think the long term security of it is far more beneificial by democratic governments in the Middle East taking hold rather than dictatorships. If that means a period of instability or some questionable regimes we don't get along with, so be it. The end result is likely far better than the bandaid approach of the narrow immediete gratification view we take currently.

    I don't give a **** about "stopping radical islam". I care about stopping radical islam from harming our country. I'm not here for a Holy War.

    You think the elections in Iraq were legitimate?
    Recently? Far more than most elections in that region of the world. Previously? Absolutely not.....but then you prove my point at the very start of this post.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Explain to us, from a tactical and strategic standpoint, how Israel is in a, "defensible position". IMO, they're couldn't be in a worse position, for defense.
    Israel's defenses and military are well entrenched in a relatively smal amount of land with a number of decades of history in defending said location and a track record of successfully doing so time and time again.

    If that allie chooses to deploy forces to support them. I don't see that as being realistic, with our current government.
    I think you're acting an utter fool here if you think your hypothetical could happen, IE the slaughter of "hundreds of thousands" of Israeli's which would likely mean that a large number of civilians are getting killed let alone the tactical problems you're suggesting, while our government did literally nothing to come to their aid. You're letting your hyper partisan tendancies blind you from looking at a situation honestly and legitimately, but then again I'm being redundant as that is the standard for how hyper partisans view most political issues.

    That statement proves that you lack the historical knowledge to understand just how realistic my hypothetical is.
    Really. Perhaps you can point me to all the historical situations where countries have killed hundreds of thousands of Israeli's, took over their entire country, and held the world hostage. I'm apparently missing that "historical knowledge".

    No, sorry, history is in my favor on this one.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes, indefinitely, since the Egyptian elections are as legitimate as the ones in Venezuela recently.

    Or do you think that Chavez is a legitimately elected Leader?



    What do you mean if I'm wrong? If I'm wrong that the people over throw the government? Then Mubarak keeps tenuous grasp of the country.



    I don't think the Iranian are massively better off then before, I don't think they're amazingly worse off than before either. I also think generally though giving aid to people attempting to fight for democracy and are on the verge of it is better than just initiating and causing it yourself. We could've been France to Iran's Green Revolution, instead Obama sat on his ass.

    Not to mention we didn't install a real democracy in Iran when you're talking about, we just traded one essential dictator for another.



    Please, point me out specific revolutions that demanded Democracy. Since you're far more versed in your research, I'm sure you can point me at specifics.



    Gotcha. So you weren't going on and on years back about "spreading democracy" and "spreading freedom" with regards to Iraq then? As long as your consistant.

    I care about the security of this country as well. I think the long term security of it is far more beneificial by democratic governments in the Middle East taking hold rather than dictatorships. If that means a period of instability or some questionable regimes we don't get along with, so be it. The end result is likely far better than the bandaid approach of the narrow immediete gratification view we take currently.

    I don't give a **** about "stopping radical islam". I care about stopping radical islam from harming our country. I'm not here for a Holy War.



    Recently? Far more than most elections in that region of the world. Previously? Absolutely not.....but then you prove my point at the very start of this post.
    I think the US has supported the export of democratic principles since its founding. I think we ought to continue to do so. Our level of friendship with Egypt should be based on their actions to reform so that their people have an effective voice.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It happened twice before. It can happen again.
    How'd that go again last time, Mr. History.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    The representatives selected by the people of Egypt.

    Why do you find democracy so threatening?
    A problem with this thinking is that currently there are defined representatives of the people. Egypt is a nation of 80 million. The demonstrations have been held by perhaps hundreds of thousands of people. Sort of like the tea party if they went into the streets and asked for a change in government would Obama resign?

    No doubt change has been long overdue in Egypt, but it would be better for an orderly transition so that the the most violent people get to take over like they did in Iran.

    You may notice that the governments in the most trouble ( egypt and Jordan) are aligned with the U.S. while probably the worst actor against its people, Syria has no such problems.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    On the flipside for you then Catz....were you one of those that was decrying the horrors and wrongness of the Iraqi War and how irresponsible it was for us to be trying to "spread democracy" and "bring freedom" to people?

    Its amazing how many people on both sides seem to be flip flopping. "OMG, we can't 'spread democracy', we should be worrying about ourselves not what others are doing" suddenly becomes "We can't support a dictator just because it helps ourselves, we should be helping people fight for democracy because that's what matters!". Meanwhile the other side is going "We must spread democracy, such governance protects us and its a basic human right to be free!" and now flipping "We need to keep supporting the dictator that helps us because their freedom may allow them to put into power people we don't like!"

    I hate people sometimes.
    Let's look at this, though, Zyphlin.

    Some people have said "You can't spread democracy because it must come from the people themselves. It can't be something that gets 'installed' by force. Installing a democracy is a contradiction in terms".

    That's a position which is consistent with wanting to see Egypt become a deomcarcy due to what is currently happening. One can desire a spead of democracy while simultaneously acknowledging that it must spread from within, not be installed from without.

    So comparing the two stances isn't entirely accurate.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I think the US has supported the export of democratic principles since its founding. I think we ought to continue to do so. Our level of friendship with Egypt should be based on their actions to reform so that their people have an effective voice.
    Agreed.

    We should be avoiding getting strongly in bed with Dictators. This doesn't mean we refuse to deal with them. We should deal with every legitimized government in a way that best helps our countries interests. But in cases where the people of a country are pushing for freedom and democracy the United States should be an ally to those people. And if we're not sitting there propping up and supporting the people oppressing them and squashing their freedom, then we're more likely to be able to help guide and support those who seek freedom into creating a governmental structure that will actually support such.

    If the people end up, after that, choosing to put people into power we don't like...we have to deal with that. We have to deal with that every 2, 4, or 8 years often in our own country. Supporting democracy doesn't always mean supporting the government that said democracy places in power; but we should be supporting the attempts for such.

    We should not be surprised when the people rise up and in part hold resentment towards us for helping to force upon them the type of oppressive government we found so unconvievably wrong for ourselves.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Let's look at this, though, Zyphlin.

    Some people have said "You can't spread democracy because it must come from the people themselves. It can't be something that gets 'installed' by force. Installing a democracy is a contradiction in terms".

    That's a position which is consistent with wanting to see Egypt become a deomcarcy due to what is currently happening. One can desire a spead of democracy while simultaneously acknowledging that it must spread from within, not be installed from without.

    So comparing the two stances isn't entirely accurate.
    That one is. On the flip side, others said they wanted to install a democracy not because people deserved freedom but because it best helped our security interests. That ALSO is consistant across both sides here.

    However, there were some that were adamant about us simply staying out of other peoples business, that its not the U.S.'s job to push for Democracy or freedom, and we need to keep our noses out of middle eastern affairs. There were also those that argued that giving them democracy and freedom, regardless of its positive effect on the U.S.'s security, was a legitimate reason to act in Iraq.

    Those type of arguments are more the ones I'm speaking to. There CAN be legitimately consistant arguments for supporting establishing democracy in Iraq but not here, and vise versa. But not everyone necessarily used those arguments.

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