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Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

But what's the point of this? You aren't GOING to eliminate Islam from the world, no matter how much you wish you could. So what's the point of complaining about how horrible it is, other than to make yourself feel superior?

You cannot address an issue if you continue to deny the issue. The point is to make it more manageable. And aside from their economic stations, they have to address their religion. Pretending that religion is not the key ingredient in their problem is exactly why this struggle will be harder and longer than it has to be.

...and it's not exactly the West that fancies itself as superior. Isn't God supposed to be on their righteous side? Isn't it the Sunni Arab that looks down on all other Muslim tribes? Isn't it the Sunni tribe that levied taxes upon non-Muslims throughout history? Did you know that it was the Arab slave trade, in accordance to Muhammad prescription, that identified non-Christian/non-Jews/non-Muslims as ther only acceptable source for slavery, which meant the unaffiliated black? And that Europeans identified blacks south of the northern regions in Africa as the Atlantic Slave Trade source to stay clear of black Muslim Arabs as a result? Let's not pretend that these people are hapless victims of the outside world and that they haven't lifted "racism" and superiority to a superhuman level. And before you dismiss these type things as insignificant in the year 2011, let's also remember that these people largely live within their history.

Disagree. If the countries were better developed economically and didn't radiate a sense of hopelessness and poverty, there would be far fewer people willing to throw their lives away to lash out against some perceived enemy. The fact that there are ALREADY plenty of Muslim countries that fit this description should be evidence of that.

Well, you're not disagreeing with me. I agree with your first sentence. I have argued this enough to the dimwitted masses here on this site and this is why I stated above that the point is to make this more manageable (and yes this damn well means a successful Iraq in the heart of the Sunni Arab world). But your last sentence still misses the mark and I really don't know why you keep doing this. Indonesia and these other Muslim nations you keep holding up have absolutely nothing to do with the Sunni heartland of the Middle East. I have tried to make this point to you before.....

It is an absolute fact that the further people and nations get from Mecca, the healthier they appear. Look at the globe. This is a general rule. It is true for individuals, governments, and religions. I believe this has absolutely everything to do with the concentrated Sunni tribe. There is no coincidence that, when the Sunni tribe lost stewardship of Islam to the Ottoman's, the Sunni Arabs locked down all scientific and philosophical study in the region for all Muslims. There is no coincidence that even as the Ottoman Turks tried to move Islam into the modern future, it was the Sunni elders in the heartland that continually managed to prevent all reformation. There is no coincidence that in Sudan and Iraq it was the Sunni tribe that orchestrated mass slaughter of their fellow non-Arab Muslims. and there is no coincidence that Iraq's progressing democracy is absolutely due to its government not being of largely Sunni membership, but largely Shia. Is it a coincidence that the freest Muslims in the regions live under a Jewsih government and not a Sunni Arab one? And with all the money the U.S. has given to almost every single nation in this region over the last 65-ish years, only Israel maintains a sense of great prosperity and social justice for all its religious people?

Therefore, I submit that for politicial fear of actually looking into the Islamic culture, people miss the mark by pretending that any of these Middle Eastern Arab cultures, which have no recorded history prior to Islam, can look like Indonesia, a country as far removed from the source of the problem as possible. Sunni Arabs can thrive in democracy when they do not have a Sunni Arab government above them. The tendency to voice their superiority above all others has been historically traditional and has facilitated oppression and the fact that Muhammad was a Sunni doesn't help. Aside from their economic problems in the Middle East, all Muslims and non-Muslims have to contend with the entirely religious Sunni tribe who have no history prior to Muhammad. Pray in Arabic? Face Mecca? So God can't speak other languages or can't be everywhere as the Qu'ran states? I subscribe to the prospect that down through the centuries, people have unwittingly been offering their allegiances to the Sunni tribe rather than true faith in God. After all, is God in Rome and speaking Latin in the West still?

Look at another point. How much more healthier does Egypt, Turkey, and Iran look as compared to all the other Arab governments? While you may seek to show where they are imperfect, you must also admit that they have had a certain potential to experiment (and more nationalistic) that the others seem to not have. The big difference between them and the rest is that they have a recorded history prior to Islam. For the rest, Islam is the beginning.


Like what?

1) Christianity didn't start with government and therefore does not have the root prescription that it belongs in government (it would serve our Christian base to remember this). Before Muhammad died, government was Islam and directly after he died the Rashidun exploded Islam out into the world as government.

2) Jesus was an activist and died a "failure." Muhammad was an activist, judge, politician, general, and soveriegn. He died "successful."


These two very bold truths have facilitated the paths of both religions. The separation between church and state was always going to be easier in Christianity - "Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser and render unto God that which is God." Clear separation. No such scriptures exist in the Qu'ran because Islam was never not government and was alwasy supposed to be. Who was the orginial Caeser of Islam? It wasn't the first caliphate. There is also the manner in which Islam thrived when it was in its purity under the Prophet. It's Muhammad's life example that lends legitimacy towards Islamic warriors. The worse Islam's scene has become down through history is supposed to be evidence of how "Westernized" they were leaning.

You can sit back and blame their religion, which you can't change. Or you can consider solutions to things that CAN be changed, like poverty and state governance. Your.

Without adressing their cultural failures, which is absolutely rooted in Islam, they only address part of the problem.

I have a feeling that most of the countries in question will be far more amenable to "Gradually reduce your subsidies and tariffs, and improve free speech and women's rights" than they will to "Stop being so damn Muslim."

Well, this is actually the issue you seem to be avoiding. What is Muslim? According to the radical, he is Muslim. According to the extremist, he is Muslim. According to the modernist, he is Muslim. According to the secularist, he is Muslim. I'm sure all of Bashir's men on the slaughhter path considered themselves Muslim. And how Muslim is Al-Queda, the Tali-Ban, Hezbollah, etc.? Until this Sunni base of operations in the Middle East figures out what a "good" Muslim is, money won't buy peace. Religious reformation must also be a focus.
 
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I don't think invading Egypt is a smart idea. From what I am reading in the news and what my co-worker told me who is from Egypt, there is a lot of anti-American feeling behind the protests and they feel their government has represented foreign interests ahead of their own. If America were to invade the people would be more likely to support a new radical government just for the sake of keeping the U.S. out, even though it would be bad for them.

Mubarak tossed out his cabinet within the past couple of days so there are signs that the government as it is will not survive. The Egyptians seem to have a big understanding of what is needed next and based on the peaceful protests that include songs and dances, it seems like they are aiming for a democratic government that will put them first.

Who said anything about invading Egypt?
 
Uhh I'm pretty sure there is a substantial difference between supporting the democratic aspirations of protesters, and forcibly invading a country and imposing it on them. The war in Iraq was an absolute geopolitical catastrophe, both for the United States and for the nations of the Middle East.

Others countries haven't been particularly bothered by having democracy "imposed" on them and it's not clear why the people of Iraq shouldn;t feel the same. Theyt certainly had a murderous dictatorship imposed on them, that's certain.

Why is democracy in the Middle East a "disaster"? While it might make the dictatorships, theocrats and other special interest groups nervous it might be welcomed by the people, once they get used to the idea.

It was often said that Blacks couldn't handle democracy, nor the Japanese, Chinese and so on. I see immigrants from many countries living quite happily in democracies and it seems to suit them fine.
 
If you strip away the legitimcay that Allah provides, there would be far less people seeking to end their life through suicide and willing to commit mass murder. When tribes within this religion use their God to legitimize the slaughter of even their own fellow poor and economically starving people in another camp, I feel it should be obvious to even those without the study.

ALL Sunni suicide bombing was directed at their long-time enemies, the Shiite, as we've seen and read about for the last 7 years, and could have nothing to do with the religion they both follow, Muslim.

ricksfolly
 
Why is democracy in the Middle East a "disaster"? While it might make the dictatorships, theocrats and other special interest groups nervous it might be welcomed by the people, once they get used to the idea.

All the people know is work, get paid, spend it, have a family, and vote, the same way it is here. The difference is Arabs don't have idealistic illusions.

ricksfolly
 
ALL Sunni suicide bombing was directed at their long-time enemies, the Shiite, as we've seen and read about for the last 7 years, and could have nothing to do with the religion they both follow, Muslim.

ricksfolly

1. The both follow Islam - not Muslim.
2. I think the Israel People, our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq, and those who died on 9/11 would disagree that "all Sunni suicide bombing was directed at their long-time enemies, the Shiite"
 
IMO, the President should only have stated that he believes a peaceful democratic evolution in Egypt is feasible. Nothing more. By pushing for specific changes and then failing to attain them, risks are created. For example, let's say the U.S. is seen as having shaped a transitional government and then the people are dissatisfied with the progress of that transitional government. Then, public perceptions in Egypt could turn against the U.S., holding it, in part, responsible for an unsatisfactory situation. If, against that backdrop, a new government emerges, it could well choose to redefine Egypt's relationship with the U.S. in a direction that reduces U.S. influence (that would be blamed for bad outcomes) even if the bilateral relationship is sustained. That approach would undermine U.S. interests. However, had the President only stated a belief that a democratic transformation is feasible, then the U.S. would be in a less bad position. Were the current government ultimately to prevail, the U.S. would not have been seen as trying to push it from power. Were the populist movement to prevail, the U.S. would have been perceived as having been friendly to democratic changes.

I believe Henry Kissinger put it best when he advised with respect to U.S. policy concerning events in Egypt, "It should not look like an American project. The Egyptians are a proud people. They threw out the British and they threw out the Russians."
 
IMO, the President should only have stated that he believes a peaceful democratic evolution in Egypt is feasible. Nothing more. By pushing for specific changes and then failing to attain them, risks are created. For example, let's say the U.S. is seen as having shaped a transitional government and then the people are dissatisfied with the progress of that transitional government. Then, public perceptions in Egypt could turn against the U.S., holding it, in part, responsible for an unsatisfactory situation. If, against that backdrop, a new government emerges, it could well choose to redefine Egypt's relationship with the U.S. in a direction that reduces U.S. influence (that would be blamed for bad outcomes) even if the bilateral relationship is sustained. That approach would undermine U.S. interests. However, had the President only stated a belief that a democratic transformation is feasible, then the U.S. would be in a less bad position. Were the current government ultimately to prevail, the U.S. would not have been seen as trying to push it from power. Were the populist movement to prevail, the U.S. would have been perceived as having been friendly to democratic changes.

I believe Henry Kissinger put it best when he advised with respect to U.S. policy concerning events in Egypt, "It should not look like an American project. The Egyptians are a proud people. They threw out the British and they threw out the Russians."

Public perceptions in Egypt are already against the U.S. Time to stop the hypocrisy and help remove a dictatorship we've supported all these years. It has been a deal with the devil, to protect our interests. Maybe, just maybe we can start to turn around the anti-Americanism by example. If we need to sacrifice our interests to do so, we should.
 
IMO, the President should only have stated that he believes a peaceful democratic evolution in Egypt is feasible.

The demonstration may not be a cry for democracy as everyone assumes. It could be just an angry attempt to get Mub to resign for a variety of reasons.

ricksfolly
 
The demonstration may not be a cry for democracy as everyone assumes. It could be just an angry attempt to get Mub to resign for a variety of reasons.

ricksfolly


Not any sort of varity in my mind, only one. Islamic take over of the entire region.


j-mac
 
They are, for Christ's sake. They have a ratified constitution.

By a corrupt regime that we enabled and continue to prop up with a military occupation.
 
Now it is a Democracy doing very well.

That is yet to be determined. Right now, it still can't stand against its own people without the most powerful military on the planet propping it up.


Yes, there is still a long way to go, but as young as it is, it inspires Democracy through the Arab world.


From what I've heard that whole US military invasion and indefinite occupation thing doesn't go over too well in the Arab world.
 
YAWN.

By a corrupt regime that we enabled and continue to prop up with a military occupation.

Is the American government corrupt? Why and how does the Iraqi government's corruption delegitimize the recognition of its authority by the Iraqis?

Are our military forces involved at all in local security of the population or enabling the authority of the Iraqi government? Evidence.

That is yet to be determined. Right now, it still can't stand against its own people without the most powerful military on the planet propping it up.

We are not propping it up. See above.

From what I've heard that whole US military invasion and indefinite occupation thing doesn't go over too well in the Arab world.

No it doesn't. But that doesn't matter. The Arab world sees the path to Democracy that Iraqis themselves took. The Iraqis voted for a government that drafted a constitution that was ratified by the Iraqis and they have had 2 national elections under that constitution's auspices. It most certainly inspires the Arab world.
 
reefedjib -
Are our military forces involved at all in local security of the population or enabling the authority of the Iraqi government? Evidence.

The evidence is that the new regime cannot stand on its own to date without the presence of our 35,000 combat ready troops with the full support of the most powerful military on the planet. When all troops have been withdrawn, you can then raise your "Mission Accomplished" flag, at least until the Iraqis resume their civil war.
 
All the people know is work, get paid, spend it, have a family, and vote, the same way it is here. The difference is Arabs don't have idealistic illusions.

ricksfolly

Why should idealism be an illusion?
 
IMO, the President should only have stated that he believes a peaceful democratic evolution in Egypt is feasible. Nothing more. By pushing for specific changes and then failing to attain them, risks are created. For example, let's say the U.S. is seen as having shaped a transitional government and then the people are dissatisfied with the progress of that transitional government. Then, public perceptions in Egypt could turn against the U.S., holding it, in part, responsible for an unsatisfactory situation. If, against that backdrop, a new government emerges, it could well choose to redefine Egypt's relationship with the U.S. in a direction that reduces U.S. influence (that would be blamed for bad outcomes) even if the bilateral relationship is sustained. That approach would undermine U.S. interests. However, had the President only stated a belief that a democratic transformation is feasible, then the U.S. would be in a less bad position. Were the current government ultimately to prevail, the U.S. would not have been seen as trying to push it from power. Were the populist movement to prevail, the U.S. would have been perceived as having been friendly to democratic changes.

I believe Henry Kissinger put it best when he advised with respect to U.S. policy concerning events in Egypt, "It should not look like an American project. The Egyptians are a proud people. They threw out the British and they threw out the Russians."

Obama should just be quiet until the smoke clears. He can do long term damage and make the United States look foolish if he continues to guess his way along, or speak foreign policy for a local audience, in an attempt to give the impression that he has some international authority, moral or military, over unfolding events.
 
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Public perceptions in Egypt are already against the U.S. Time to stop the hypocrisy and help remove a dictatorship we've supported all these years. It has been a deal with the devil, to protect our interests. Maybe, just maybe we can start to turn around the anti-Americanism by example. If we need to sacrifice our interests to do so, we should.

The United States played the major role in removing the worst dictator in the Middle East and received nothing more than public criticism from both their former Allies as well as other Middle East countries. Let them work it out themselves and then, if they cause any problem to the American people, hit them very bloody hard.
 
That is yet to be determined. Right now, it still can't stand against its own people without the most powerful military on the planet propping it up.

The Americans and Canadians had to do the same in Western Europe and the Americans are still there.

If Western Europe, with some history of democracy couldn't manage without the Americans, how do you expect the Iraqis to do it?





From what I've heard that whole US military invasion and indefinite occupation thing doesn't go over too well in the Arab world.[/QUOTE]
 
reefedjib -

The evidence is that the new regime cannot stand on its own to date without the presence of our 35,000 combat ready troops with the full support of the most powerful military on the planet. When all troops have been withdrawn, you can then raise your "Mission Accomplished" flag, at least until the Iraqis resume their civil war.

A civil war in Iraq?

That's the Islamists murdering the Iraqi people, the religious fanatics who want Islam everywhere, but especially in the entire Middle East. It has nothing to do with the ordinary Iraqi people.
 
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A civil war in Iraq?

That's the Islamists murdering the Iraqi people, the religious fanatics who want Islam everywhere, but especially in the entire Middle East. It has nothing to do with the ordinary Iraqi people.

Sunni and Shi'a are different factions but they are both ordinary Iraqi people. They were in conflict long before our military occupation and they will, more likely than not, resume their conflict once we remove our 35,000 combat ready troops.
 
reefedjib -
reefedjib said:
Are our military forces involved at all in local security of the population or enabling the authority of the Iraqi government? Evidence.

The evidence is that the new regime cannot stand on its own to date without the presence of our 35,000 combat ready troops with the full support of the most powerful military on the planet. When all troops have been withdrawn, you can then raise your "Mission Accomplished" flag, at least until the Iraqis resume their civil war.

Nonsense. You are wrong as usual. As has been pointed out, we still have troops in Germany 65 years after the end of World War II. Just like in Iraq, these troops stick to their bases and assigned exercise areas and are not involved at all in in local security of the population or enabling the authority of the German government. The presence of foreign troops does not in any way limit the sovereignty of the Iraqi government.
 
Sunni and Shi'a are different factions but they are both ordinary Iraqi people. They were in conflict long before our military occupation and they will, more likely than not, resume their conflict once we remove our 35,000 combat ready troops.

Crystal ball a little cloudy today?
 
Sunni and Shi'a are different factions but they are both ordinary Iraqi people. They were in conflict long before our military occupation and they will, more likely than not, resume their conflict once we remove our 35,000 combat ready troops.

Ordinary Iraqi people don't go around setting off car bombs in market squares.
 
The Americans and Canadians had to do the same in Western Europe and the Americans are still there.

If Western Europe, with some history of democracy couldn't manage without the Americans, how do you expect the Iraqis to do it?

I don't believe this is a fair characterization. Over time, the U.S. presence in Western Europe became strictly about assisting with national security (against the U.S.S.R. and its allies)/the global balance of power, not about helping maintain law/order/internal stability. In Iraq, the diminishing U.S. presence is still largely focused on the latter.
 
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