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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Hamas was voted in in legislative elections, not presidential. They then proceded to illegally (within Palestinian law) to seize control of executive functions in Gaza. As for Iran, do you truly believe that is a democracy?

    I would like to see a genuine democracy in Egypt.



    Remember when Democratic Philippines kicked out the US from bases in that country? And the U.S. supported the people's power movement that led to that decision...
    yes i can come up with democratic allies that just love us handling their defense budgets for them, but are there any that were colonies of a western nation 60 years ago that want us there?

    and don't say israel, im guessing the displaced palestinians aren't too happy about that.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

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    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    from several of the comments listed here i get the idea that people only support democracy in the middle east if they vote in a pro-us government. the palestinians wanted hamas, oh that can't be democratic, we heard. the irannians voted in ahmadedijad, that had to be vote rigging. nevermind the fact that we don't allow elections in key countries that let us build bases such as saudi arabia and yemen. and yes we are the ones not allowing it by giving all the weapons to their despots.

    you have to choose one or the other, either democratic nations that don't want our military bases, or despots that'll support our imperialism in the region. you clearly can't have both...
    I support Democracy period.
    However, if a country elects someone who is an anathema to our beliefs,we should do what's in OUR Countries interest in respect to them.
    That might include cutting off aid or supporting a neighbor of their's in any disagreement. Same as we do elsewhere; elected or unelected.

    Palestinians.. actually Gazans... were free to elect Hamas (or Germany, Hitler for that matter), but they have to live with consquences which include the USA acting in it's own interest.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-26-11 at 11:33 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    I support Democracy period.
    However, if a country elects someone who is an anathema to our beliefs,we should do what's in OUR Countries interest in respect to them
    That might include cutting off aid or supportting a neighbor of their's in any disagreement. Same as we do elsewhere.

    Palestinians.. actually Gazans... were free to elect Hamas (or Germany, Hitler for that matter), but they have to live with consquences which include the USA acting in our own interest.
    so that's a yes, we only respect a democracy if it's a pro US democracy. very very similar to only respecting free speech as long as it's pro government free speech.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

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    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    so that's a yes, we only respect a democracy if it's a pro US democracy. very very similar to only respecting free speech as long as it's pro government free speech.
    Incorrect.
    I support Free elections Everywhere.
    I don't have to endorse the results of all of them, just Recognize them as a legitimate govt. No more.
    Not necessarily support them in any way.

    If Canada legimately elects a govt that wants War with us? I accept/recognize it.. now..OPEN FIRE!
    Last edited by mbig; 01-26-11 at 11:38 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    so that's a yes, we only respect a democracy if it's a pro US democracy. very very similar to only respecting free speech as long as it's pro government free speech.
    The fact that people elect various governments into power does not mean the resultant governments act on democratic principles once in power. The Nazis were a prime example of this in that they were elected, but then proceeded to completely dismantle any semblance of democracy.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    you guys seem to be missing the point. saudi arabia's rulers actively opposes any attempt by their people to make their government accountable to them. we enable them to do that by arming them. we do the same thing in egypt, in jordan, in pakistan, yemen, etc. we did it all over south and central america since the 60's. part of supporting liberty, democracy, and self determination means not arming the brutal dictators that'll institute the policies we approve of.

    in all of the recent northern african riots and subsequent self-immolations they were objecting to an oppressive government with close ties to washington. somewhere someone here has to see that us supporting a government against the wishes of their people isn't the type of freedom we want to export around the world.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

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    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    you guys seem to be missing the point. saudi arabia's rulers actively opposes any attempt by their people to make their government accountable to them. we enable them to do that by arming them. we do the same thing in egypt, in jordan, in pakistan, yemen, etc. we did it all over south and central america since the 60's. part of supporting liberty, democracy, and self determination means not arming the brutal dictators that'll institute the policies we approve of.

    in all of the recent northern african riots and subsequent self-immolations they were objecting to an oppressive government with close ties to washington. somewhere someone here has to see that us supporting a government against the wishes of their people isn't the type of freedom we want to export around the world.
    1. You've been answered in full/refuted on your premise that we [posters here] don't accept election results.

    2. So you've had to move the goal posts to a new issue/issues. The non-democracies we support, used to support, or must now placate.

    What do You suggest in Saudi Arabia? (prez for an hour)
    Activley foment/arm a revolution and maybe cut off 'our' oil for a few years destroying the planet's economy?
    Or get along until they evolve.
    We act in our own interest... and Yours for that matter.

    We did support many Dictators in Latin America during and Because of the Cold War with the USSR.
    AGAIN. We must act in our own interest with countries be they democracies or not.
    Generally we are supportive ideologically to democracy, but some like Iran (whose legitimacy I question) and who is ultimately ruled by a 'Supreme leader' isn't a democracy in any case.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-27-11 at 12:27 AM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    1. You've been answered in full/refuted on your premise that we [posters here] don't accept election results.
    but you don't support elections in the nations where they'd vote against our economic interests, that's conditional democracy
    2. So you've had to move the goal posts to a new issue/issues. The non-democracies we support, used to support, or must now placate.

    What do You suggest in Saudi Arabia? (prez for an hour)
    if spreading liberty and democracy is the goal of america's forgeign policy, i'd pull the military assets out and say we'd consider bringing them back if invited back by a democratically elected government.
    Activley foment/arm a revolution and maybe cut off 'our' oil for a few years destroying the planet's economy?
    Or get along until they evolve.
    playing in the domestic affairs of another sovereign nation is not supportive of american values. would you support a foreign entity actively persuing revolution in the US? furthermore, acting out of fear of what would happen to our economy if we don't have the saudi's precious oil is probably the dumbest foreign policy mistake the US made in 20th century, well second dumbest.
    We act in our own interest... and Yours for that matter.

    We did support many Dictators in Latin America during and Because of the Cold War with the USSR.
    AGAIN. We must act in our own interest with countries be they democracies or not.
    not sure how much of the cold war you remember or paid attention to. but that was a war against an ideology. if we have so much faith in liberty and democracy, why must we fight proxy wars against a nation with a different ideology. the cold war was once again the US fearing an ideology, and going to great lengths, up to and including trashing our ideals, for fear of an ideology. that's not conviction in your believes, this was the biggest foreign policy mistake of the 20th century.
    Generally we are supportive ideologically to democracy, but some like Iran (whose legitimacy I question) and who is ultimately ruled by a 'Supreme leader' isn't a democracy in any case.
    either you support and live by your values and ideals, or tell yourself you're being pragmatic and cutting your values short when they don't seem to be convenient. if you believe, as i do, that liberty and democracy is what is at america's best interest, you certainly cannot support the idea of oppressing a foreign nation so that they keep a leader that will act as we direct him.

    furthermore, if you look into the history of empires such as ours, the english, the ottomans, the spanish, the portugese, the romans, etc. you'll see that their empires fall shortly after it becomes more expensive to service their debt than defend their empire. sun tzu gives alot of instruction about the dangers of spending so much resources fighting wars far from your borders. we're not heading into a good place, we won't make it out of this current situation until we're all willing to question what we think are the right decisions. just because the soviet union fell doesn't mean we were right to fight it in the way we did. just because several cave dwellers have died or stopped planning attacks on american soil doesn't mean we safer by keeping bases in 75 different foreign countries.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

  9. #59
    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    but you don't support elections in the nations where they'd vote against our economic interests, that's conditional democracy
    YES I do.
    As stated and elaborated above.
    This is an absolute 100% Lie on your part.
    Several posts elaborated this.

    if spreading liberty and democracy is the goal of america's forgeign policy, i'd pull the military assets out and say we'd consider bringing them back if invited back by a democratically elected government.
    Nonsense reply.
    1. We have in most part already left Saudi Arabia militarily at Their request. Oooops! (for Qatar)
    2. The Monarchy isn't just going to fold up their tents and leave.
    You're STILL up Prez.

    playing in the domestic affairs of another sovereign nation is not supportive of american values.
    How do you know that?
    It may very well be sometimes.
    In any case, it was never suggested.. Except by YOU in suggessting we give ultimatums to non-democracies.

    would you support a foreign entity actively persuing revolution in the US?
    No. That's why I don't want to Ultimatum the Saudi Arabia nor Foment revolution in their country. YOUR suggestion.

    not sure how much of the cold war you remember or paid attention to. but that was a war against an ideology. if we have so much faith in liberty and democracy, why must we fight proxy wars against a nation with a different ideology. the cold war was once again the US fearing an ideology, and going to great lengths, up to and including trashing our ideals, for fear of an ideology. that's not conviction in your believes, this was the biggest foreign policy mistake of the 20th century.
    I remember it quite well. Unlike you I was alive for 90% of it.
    Our actions then were almost excluively to stop the spread of communism even at the expense of supporting some true tyrants.
    It's MY memory in fact that enables me to put our actions of the time in the Perspective OF the time. Unlike you who want to project back forgetting the situation.. THEN.


    either you support and live by your values and ideals, or tell yourself you're being pragmatic and cutting your values short when they don't seem to be convenient. if you believe, as i do, that liberty and democracy is what is at america's best interest, you certainly cannot support the idea of oppressing a foreign nation so that they keep a leader that will act as we direct him.
    Just plain UNTRUE.
    One has principles.. but if it comes to getting your kids thru school (or not cutting the USA from oil), one does what one has to while, maintaining a moral a stand as possible.

    furthermore, if you look into the history of empires such as ours, the english, the ottomans, the spanish, the portugese, the romans, etc. you'll see that their empires fall shortly after it becomes more expensive to service their debt than defend their empire. sun tzu gives alot of instruction about the dangers of spending so much resources fighting wars far from your borders. we're not heading into a good place, we won't make it out of this current situation until we're all willing to question what we think are the right decisions. just because the soviet union fell doesn't mean we were right to fight it in the way we did. just because several cave dwellers have died or stopped planning attacks on american soil doesn't mean we safer by keeping bases in 75 different foreign countries.
    Fallacious and irrelevant reply. But it did add length/apparent depth to you post.
    Congrats.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-27-11 at 01:23 AM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    If there's basically a coup, I doubt the new government will honor Egypt's current treaties with Israel. That will increase tensions substantially. Not really a good situation in Egypt right now, not good at all.

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