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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #471
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by 24107 View Post
    he was assasinated because he made peace with the ancient archrival of the egyptians and other arabs, the israeli jews because they feel the Palestinian arabs lost territory they were living on.
    Are you justifying the assassination of Saddat because he was making peace with Israel?
    Is that your mantra, murder those who bring peace?

    That is why, the term radical islamist that you posted is used often to misguide people of the world, as to why the conflict rages is on, its about territory the arabs feel they lost due to invasion and mass immigration of european jews into where the paly arabs were living. they dont want to take over the world as you want people to believe their main objective is to get back territory they used to live on apoc. Yes but you already knew that though.
    This mumbo-jumbo and history revisionism has nothing to do with this thread.

    they killed him for making peace with an an enemy they felt in their hearts stole arab land
    Thus radical islamists. You didn't get the point though, it was not the West that has "installed" the Mubarak regime. Get your facts right or don't get them at all.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    You are one of the smartest people on dp. So let me cut to the chase. We are talking about Egypt and democracy. Won't happen. There has to be a context within which democratic forces in any society can incubate. There is no such context in Egypt.
    Will Egypt's path to democracy be easy? No. But that is partially because Mubarak suppressed any civil institutions. If the country can remain democratic long enough for those institutions to flourish on their own, it will stand a much better chance of sustaining its democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo
    Democracy is an idea. It has arisen only twice in all of world history. First in Ancient Greece. Secondly, in Enlightenment Era Europe.
    Well by that definition it CAN'T form elsewhere since anywhere in the world that it springs up, you can claim it as an heir to the European Enlightenment unless they successfully make the transition without any assistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo
    There have been three great waves of democracy. Each has been in the West or has been in societies formed or protected by the West.
    Fledgling democracies need to be guided by established democracies to have a good chance of success, yes. The cultural orientation of those established democracies is not relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo
    With the receding of the West, the context for further development of democracy ends. This is very sad, but it is what it is.
    There's no evidence that "the West" is receding, nor is there any reason to think that countries are developing democracy merely because of us. India is a rapidly growing democracy, and it will have a strong interest in seeing other countries in its sphere of influence democratize in the coming decades. Similarly, China is slowly becoming more democratic and as its economy continues to boom it will have a much stronger incentive to democratize. Once countries pass a certain income threshold (with the exception of some oil-based economies) their citizens are far more likely to demand democracy. And China will be no exception.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-30-11 at 07:14 PM.
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  3. #473
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    ...There's no evidence that "the West" is receding,...
    Oh dear Kandahar. You could not be more mistaken.

    We are all prisoners of time and space. Our perspective is always limited unless we study history and culture. There is a book I would like to recommend you read if you have a chance. From Dawn To Decadence by Jacques Barzun. It will break the heart of anyone who loves what the West once was.

    The Ugley Vicar: On finishing Barzun's 'From Dawn to Decadence'

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Oh dear Kandahar. You could not be more mistaken.
    In terms of military power, the United States spends more than the next 20 countries combined. There is no way that we're going to be significantly challenged in this arena anytime soon.

    In terms of economic power, the American economy is one of the most vibrant in the world. It isn't growing as fast as some other large countries, but that's because developing countries tend to grow faster because there is more room for growth.

    In terms of demographic power, it's true that America's population is not growing as fast as other countries, but that isn't a bad thing. We tend to think of more people as more brains to solve problems...which is true in this country. In China and India, it just means more mouths to feed.

    I wouldn't start bemoaning the collapse of American civilization quite yet. And in any case, the rising superpowers will have an incentive to see their neighbors democratize (in India's case) or to democratize themselves as they become wealthier (in China's case). There is no reason to expect democracy to recede.

    Every non-petrostate with a GDP per capita (PPP) of at least $14,000 is a democracy...and every non-petrostate except Belarus with a GDP per capita (PPP) of at least $10,000 is a democracy. That seems to be a threshold at which people demand their freedoms. It will happen in China when they get close to that income level (they're at $7,500 now), and it will happen in Russia and other petrostates when oil ceases to drive their economy if not sooner.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-30-11 at 07:59 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Are you justifying the assassination of Saddat because he was making peace with Israel?
    Is that your mantra, murder those who bring peace?
    apoc im just giving you the actual reason he was killed and not justifying, it was done because he made peace with an enemy they felt they still had to expell from the land they believe is theirs. simple facts why, thats it.
    This mumbo-jumbo and history revisionism has nothing to do with this thread.
    apoc, if me calling the 1948 events, where their was a loss of land that arabs lived on mumbo jumbo historical revisionalis, then we have reached a deadend in this discussion
    Thus radical islamists. You didn't get the point though, it was not the West that has "installed" the Mubarak regime. Get your facts right or don't get them at all.
    apoc i was refering to the part in your post about the sadat assaisination, are you sure you feel ok?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    In terms of military power, the United States spends more than the next 20 countries combined. There is no way that we're going to be significantly challenged in this arena anytime soon.

    In terms of economic power, the American economy is one of the most vibrant in the world. It isn't growing as fast as some other large countries, but that's because developing countries tend to grow faster because there is more room for growth.

    In terms of demographic power, it's true that America's population is not growing as fast as other countries, but that isn't a bad thing. We tend to think of more people as more brains to solve problems...which is true in this country. In China and India, it just means more mouths to feed.

    I wouldn't start bemoaning the collapse of American civilization quite yet. And in any case, as I said, the rising superpowers will have an incentive to see their neighbors democratize (in India's case) or to democratize themselves as they become wealthier (in China's case). There is no reason to expect democracy to recede.
    kandahar, dont waste your time, with albert he could care less about true democracy in other countries, just read a few of his posts in his history, and you willsee exactly what im talking about, trust me kandahar dont beat your head against a brick wall for nothing

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    In terms of military power, the United States spends more than the next 20 countries combined. There is no way that we're going to be significantly challenged in this arena anytime soon.

    In terms of economic power, the American economy is one of the most vibrant in the world. It isn't growing as fast as some other large countries, but that's because developing countries tend to grow faster because there is more room for growth.

    In terms of demographic power, it's true that America's population is not growing as fast as other countries, but that isn't a bad thing. We tend to think of more people as more brains to solve problems...which is true in this country. In China and India, it just means more mouths to feed.

    I wouldn't start bemoaning the collapse of American civilization quite yet. And in any case, as I said, the rising superpowers will have an incentive to see their neighbors democratize (in India's case) or to democratize themselves as they become wealthier (in China's case). There is no reason to expect democracy to recede.

    Every non-petrostate with a GDP per capita (PPP) of at least $14,000 is a democracy...and every non-petrostate except Belarus with a GDP per capita (PPP) of at least $10,000 is a democracy. That seems to be a threshold at which people demand their freedoms. It will happen in China when they get close to that income level, and it will happen in Russia and other petrostates when the oil runs out if not sooner.
    Oh please, there is no sense in whistling past the graveyard. America has a national deficit of $14+ Trillion Dollars. That will increase by $1.5 Trillion next year and every year as far as the eye can see.

    The unfunded Social Security liabilities exceed $30+ Trillion Dollars. The unfunded Medicare liabilities exceed $20+ Trillion Dollars. There is no way to pay this indebtedness that can be agreed upon.

    The divisions in this country have paralyzed America. There is no possibility that will change. The American people are being defeated by the American people.

    No society in human history has survived an extended period of such financial instability. Not Bourbon France. Not Qing Dynasty China. Not the Soviet Union.

    Americans are not exempt from the forces and processes of history. Americans can't fight gravity. And you my friend can't fight facts.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by 24107 View Post
    kandahar, dont waste your time, with albert he could care less about true democracy in other countries, just read a few of his posts in his history, and you willsee exactly what im talking about, trust me kandahar dont beat your head against a brick wall for nothing
    Who are you. We haven't been introduced.

    America has destroyed itself for several reasons. One reason contributing to the fall is that America has diverted its resources in attempting to promote democracy. I don't care about any one except Americans. Many Americans share that view.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Oh please, there is no sense in whistling past the graveyard. America has a national deficit of $14+ Trillion Dollars. That will increase by $1.5 Trillion next year and every year as far as the eye can see.

    The unfunded Social Security liabilities exceed $30+ Trillion Dollars. The unfunded Medicare liabilities exceed $20+ Trillion Dollars. There is no way to pay this indebtedness that can be agreed upon.

    The divisions in this country have paralyzed America. There is no possibility that will change. The American people are being defeated by the American people.

    No society in human history has survived an extended period of such financial instability. Not Bourbon France. Not Qing Dynasty China. Not the Soviet Union.

    Americans are not exempt from the forces and processes of history. Americans can't fight gravity. And you my friend can't fight facts.
    OK, but investors who actually have money on the table don't agree with your negative assessments, since T-bond interest rates are at an all-time low. And you still did not address the fundamental point: Those rising powers you're so worried about could pick up where we left off in terms of promoting democracy...at home for China, and in Central Asia for India. Democracy is practically inevitable once a country reaches a certain level of development, at least for non-petrostates.

    And even if the US went bankrupt tomorrow it would not change the fact that we have the strongest military and will for a very very long time.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-30-11 at 08:12 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, but investors who actually have money on the table don't agree with your negative assessments, since T-bond interest rates are at an all-time low. And you still did not address the fundamental point: Those rising powers you're so worried about could pick up where we left off in terms of promoting democracy...at home for China, and in Central Asia for India. Democracy is practically inevitable once a country reaches a certain level of development, at least for non-petrostates.

    And even if the US went bankrupt tomorrow it would not change the fact that we have the strongest military and will for a very very long time.
    People I know are diversifying investments out of America if they can because of the increasing risk. Interest rates are being held down by monetary policy. This won't last much longer. Have you seen the price of crude oil? Have you seen the price of food? Commodities are a killer.

    The only money I personally see coming into America is from Chinese investors snapping up discounted distressed properties through Vulture Funds. That's not good for American society as a whole.

    China is a Leninist state. What possible factual basis do you have for believing it will become a democratic state? The whole world wonders? Central Asian democracy? Uzbekistan? No. Tajikistan? No? Kyrgzistan (sp)? Big No. The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan? It's a Muslim/Narco state.

    The American military is living off of its laurels. The equipment they have dates mostly from the Reagan/Bush era. It's getting worn out. The US Navy used to have 600 ships. Now it has less than 300. Production of the F-22 has stopped. The F-35 may not be in the same class as the Chinese prototype of the J-20 fighter which has two engines and apparently a bigger payload.

    The Chinese defense budget is skyrocketing. This is the fastest military buildup since German rearmament in the 1930s. The US defense budget has to be slashed so that America can pay for Obamacare, Social Security, Medicare, and interest payments on the national debt. The country is effectively broke.

    Without America I think there is a real possiblity that some countries will turn to the Chinese model of development. Authoritarian capitalism. The Chinese people do not seek democracy. They seek prosperity.

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