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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #461
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Or we could have done nothing and had a larger North Korea.
    This has nothing to do with anything being discussed. Fail.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-30-11 at 06:35 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Semantics can be used to trick people. But it doesn't work on an old trickster. America didn't "impose" democracy on SK. It provided the ingredients necessary for democracy to be born. Without those conditions of "domination" democracy would not have been born in SK.

    First, the ROK/USA mutual security treaty created the political and physical space for SK to exist.

    Second, America's open market allowed SK, like Japan, to evolve an export driven economy that lifted the living standards of the people of the ROK.

    Third, the US restrained the South Korean military dictatorship. Not with respect to the Kwanju Uprising and Massacre, but in 1987 the Reagan administration restrained the dictatorship from repeating the Kwangju massacre. Without the ability to quell the demonstations with brute force, the dictatorship was replaced by Roh Tae Woo who paved the way for democracy.

    Take America out of the equation and there would be no democracy in South Korea. I remember the SK movement for democracy came to a head not long after the inception of People Power in the Philippines. One cannot honestly ignore the context and milieu established by Pax Americana.

    South Korea had no history of democracy. The idea of democracy has not originated independently in any non-Western polity in history. Ever.


    Edit: http://www.tfd.org.tw/docs/dj0301_ne...mook%20Lee.pdf
    As I've said before, it's rare for ANY nation to make the transition from dictatorship to democracy without the support of other democratic powers. That doesn't make it a "Western idea" that can't originate elsewhere, nor does it mean that it's Western countries imposing democracy on a resistant public. The South Korean democratic movement - just like the Egyptian democratic movement - was homegrown.

    I don't know why you're drawing this distinction between Western and Non-Western. There are plenty of Western countries (e.g. Germany, Poland, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico) that needed help to become democracies too.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-30-11 at 06:33 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Iran hold's elections for most offices, but is ultimately ruled by a 'Supreme Leader'.
    It's a Theocratic Police state.
    Definitely not democracy.
    And the last election results for the A-jad/President were dubious.

    Jordan has Parliamentary elections but is ruled by a King.
    Yes Mbig you are correct, all three are dictatorships, but the only difference is Iran's is not western installed and supported dictatorship that serves the interests of not their people but you know who, i am sure you dont lose any sleep over these tyrants never ending regimes, because frankly you dont care about the population of those countries. by the way Murdered By Islamic Gunman aka MBIG how are you doing still alive and kicking
    Last edited by 24107; 01-30-11 at 06:35 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    The Guardian reports that most of the leading opposition groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood, have indicated that they will support Mohamed ElBaradei to lead a transition government assuming Mubarak abdicates.
    All eyes on Egypt's military as Hosni Mubarak fortifies position | World news | The Guardian
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Guardian reports that most of the leading opposition groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood, have indicated that they will support Mohamed ElBaradei to lead a transition government assuming Mubarak abdicates.
    All eyes on Egypt's military as Hosni Mubarak fortifies position | World news | The Guardian
    Unfortunately, i fear a new transitional government led by ElBaradei may have to muddy its waters with a senior government position filled by a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Politicians are not in the business of unconditional support but i wont get ahead of myself:

    down with mubarak!
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Unfortunately, i fear a new transitional government led by ElBaradei may have to muddy its waters with a senior government position filled by a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. These types of people are not in the business of unconditional support.
    That's fine, a transition government should have members from all major political groups so that it has legitimacy. They won't necessarily be determining any long-term policy, they'll just be establishing the conditions necessary for elections (e.g. protecting free speech/media, allowing political parties to form, etc) and keeping the trains running on time until then.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-30-11 at 06:49 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's fine, a transition government should have members from all major opposition groups so that it has legitimacy. They won't necessarily be determining any long-term policy, they'll just be establishing the conditions for elections (e.g. protecting free speech/media, allowing political parties to form, etc).
    "Unity" governments have a terrible reputation, especially in the Arab world. I hope they can establish these conditions with a compromising and bi-partisan approach to all issues. I hope the MB take a more mature approach and do there best to not follow the examples of Hezbollah in Lebanon.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 01-30-11 at 06:53 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by 24107 View Post
    Actually, i think the hardline islamists are ruthless hippocrites and losers, they dont interpret what they read correctly, and i doubt they have the brains and support of all the decent and rational muslims numbering a billion plus to take over, and allow them to make their lives a living hell, because in reality the majority of the muslims of the world just like other human beings just want to pay bills and raise their kids, when a puppet dictatator regime is installed for the interests of lets say for example of a western power or Israel, that gives the hardline islamists a foot hold, but you im sure as an educated man as you are already knew this, but you simply don't care or most likely dislike muslims because well their muslims, simple as that. As far as spelling is concerned yes i know muslim is not spelled mooslem. but if correcting grammer and punction makes you feel smart and superior by all means sir proceed.
    Yes because Mubarak was "installed" by Western powers and not by the radical Islamists who have assassinated Saddat. Everyone knows that.

    Besides, Mubarak was also so much better for the West than that evil peace-making Saddat. Everyone knows that too.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    As I've said before, it's rare for ANY nation to make the transition from dictatorship to democracy without the support of other democratic powers. That doesn't make it a "Western idea" that can't originate elsewhere, nor does it mean that it's Western countries imposing democracy on a resistant public. The South Korean democratic movement - just like the Egyptian democratic movement - was homegrown.

    I don't know why you're drawing this distinction between Western and Non-Western. There are plenty of Western countries (e.g. Germany, Poland, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico) that needed help to become democracies too.
    You are one of the smartest people on dp. So let me cut to the chase. We are talking about Egypt and democracy. Won't happen. There has to be a context within which democratic forces in any society can incubate. There is no such context in Egypt.

    Democracy is an idea. It has arisen only twice in all of world history. First in Ancient Greece. Secondly, in Enlightenment Era Europe. There have been three great waves of democracy. Each has been in the West or has been in societies formed or protected by the West.

    With the receding of the West, the context for further development of democracy ends. This is very sad, but it is what it is. Regards.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Yes because Mubarak was "installed" by Western powers and not by the radical Islamists who have assassinated Saddat. Everyone knows that.
    he was assasinated because he made peace with the ancient archrival of the egyptians and other arabs, the israeli jews because they feel the Palestinian arabs lost territory they were living on. That is why, the term radical islamist that you posted is used often to misguide people of the world, as to why the conflict rages is on, its about territory the arabs feel they lost due to invasion and mass immigration of european jews into where the paly arabs were living. they dont want to take over the world as you want people to believe their main objective is to get back territory they used to live on apoc. Yes but you already knew that though.
    Besides, Mubarak was also so much better for the West than that evil peace-making Saddat. Everyone knows that too.
    they killed him for making peace with an an enemy they felt in their hearts stole arab land, to them its like making peace with someone who killed their mom. its that deep. but apoc we can keep beating around the bush of the true reasons why things happened as long as you want.
    Last edited by 24107; 01-30-11 at 07:07 PM.

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