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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    What about the Islamic Republic of Iran? They hold regular elections. Is Iran a democracy?
    Iran hold's elections for most offices, but is ultimately ruled by a 'Supreme Leader'.
    It's a Theocratic Police state.
    Definitely not democracy.
    And the last election results for the A-jad/President were dubious.

    Jordan has Parliamentary elections but is ruled by a King.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-30-11 at 05:04 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And I must disagree with you here. Going through the motions of elections does not make a nation a democracy, even a corrupt one. Saddam Hussein held elections; the Burmese junta held elections. When the outcome of elections is predetermined or irrelevant, and when citizens are not free to criticize the government, a country is not a democracy.
    The Iranian presidential election last year had candidates limited to those who met the approval of the Theocrats. Even then, it was necessary for Ahmadinejad to steal the election from Musavi. That's why the Green Revolution started.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why? What about them isn't democratic? (I'm thinking you don't have an answer because you don't know anything about them, and you're going to Wikipedia them to find SOME minor distinction that sets them apart from Western democracies.)



    Because, of course, the only reason countries ever pursue democracy is to please the United States.



    The only one of those countries that had democracy "imposed" on them was Japan, and they certainly don't need American help any more to sustain democracy. Democracy didn't arise in India, Botswana, or Ghana as a result of western colonialism; it's not like the British Empire was big on promoting democracy in its clients. Democracy didn't arise there until AFTER the British Empire left. Same with Korea and Taiwan; American troops had been there for decades before either of them became democratic, so that's hardly the catalyst.

    American influence can help countries establish democracies, but it's stupid to think that democracy is a result of our imposing it on them...or that we'd even be CAPABLE of imposing it on them.



    As countries develop they are more likely to become democracies. It will happen in Russia and it will happen in China. The only reason that Russia has held out as long as it has is due to oil-induced Dutch Disease and horrendous mismanagement in the 1990s.
    I will concede Mali and Indonesia to you because I don't can't prove you wrong without research that I am not willing to devote to the subject. So I retract my statement to that extent.

    But you can't use anything but semantics to argue that each and every one of those other countries did not act under the influence and domination of America or other Western powers.

    Thus, I have conceded to you where I must. But in doing so I have chosen new ground that you are unable to assail. Let's continue this debate on the ground that I have chosen.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    But you can't use anything but semantics to argue that each and every one of those other countries did not act under the influence and domination of America or other Western powers.
    Yes I can. The relevant Western power either didn't give a **** about democracy (as was the case with America in Korea/Taiwan) or actively prevented it from arising (as was the case with the British in India/Ghana/Botswana). Those nations all had a homegrown desire for democracy. They made the successful transition due to some help from Western nations, but not because they "acted under the influence and domination of America."

    Democracy is NOT exclusive to Western culture. There are more people living in democracies in the non-Western world than there are in the Western world. Hell, India alone has almost as many people as Europe and the Americas combined.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes I can. The relevant Western power either didn't give a **** about democracy (as was the case with America in Korea/Taiwan) or actively prevented it from arising (as was the case with the British in India/Ghana/Botswana). Those nations all had a homegrown desire for democracy. They made the successful transition due to some help from Western nations, but not because they "acted under the influence and domination of America."

    Democracy is NOT exclusive to Western culture. There are more people living in democracies in the non-Western world than there are in the Western world. Hell, India alone has almost as many people as Europe and the Americas combined.
    Thank you for accepting my challenge. We will turn first to South Korea. Then we will address the other nations one by one. I remember what happened in South Korea.

    Do you remember Kim Dae Jung? Who prevented his execution? Answer this question and we will proceed further.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Thank you for accepting my challenge. We will turn first to South Korea. Then we will address the other nations one by one. I remember what happened in South Korea.

    Do you remember Kim Dae Jung? Who prevented his execution? Answer this question and we will proceed further.
    1950 - US occupies Korea
    1973 - US saves Kim Dae-Jung
    1987 - Korea first has a democratic election

    I'd hardly call that imposing democracy on them. The US didn't give a damn about Korean democracy. When it evolved, we helped them manage the transition, but it was almost entirely homegrown. We were just fine with occupying the country for 37 years without demanding democracy, so it's pretty hard to make the argument that they were just bowing to our whims by establishing one.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-30-11 at 06:00 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    1950 - US occupies Korea
    1973 - US saves Kim Dae-Jung
    1987 - Korea first has a democratic election

    I'd hardly call that imposing democracy on them. The US didn't give a damn about Korean democracy. When it evolved, we helped them manage the transition, but it was almost entirely homegrown. We were just fine with occupying the country for 37 years without demanding democracy, so it's pretty hard to make the argument that they were just bowing to our whims by establishing one.
    Or we could have done nothing and had a larger North Korea.

    The "Blame America" camp is a very selective view of history.
    What's amazing is how widespread it is despite it's jaded and unfair outlook.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-30-11 at 06:22 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    1950 - US occupies Korea
    1973 - US saves Kim Dae-Jung
    1987 - Korea first has a democratic election

    Kim Dae Jung would have died if America had not saved his life. He went on to become president of South Korea.

    The promotion of democracy has been a key element of American foreign policy from 1945 through 2008. Pax Americana had consequences that permitted the creation of room for the evolution of politics in South Korea.

    I'd hardly call that imposing democracy on them. The US didn't give a damn about Korean democracy. When it evolved, we helped them manage the transition, but it was almost entirely homegrown.
    Semantics can be used to trick people. But it doesn't work on an old trickster. America didn't "impose" democracy on SK. It provided the ingredients necessary for democracy to be born. Without those conditions of "domination" democracy would not have been born in SK.

    First, the ROK/USA mutual security treaty created the political and physical space for SK to exist.

    Second, America's open market allowed SK, like Japan, to evolve an export driven economy that lifted the living standards of the people of the ROK.

    Third, the US restrained the South Korean military dictatorship. Not with respect to the Kwanju Uprising and Massacre, but in 1987 the Reagan administration restrained the dictatorship from repeating the Kwangju massacre. Without the ability to quell the demonstations with brute force, the dictatorship was replaced by Roh Tae Woo who paved the way for democracy.

    Take America out of the equation and there would be no democracy in South Korea. I remember the SK movement for democracy came to a head not long after the inception of People Power in the Philippines. One cannot honestly ignore the context and milieu established by Pax Americana.

    South Korea had no history of democracy. The idea of democracy has not originated independently in any non-Western polity in history. Ever.


    Edit: http://www.tfd.org.tw/docs/dj0301_ne...mook%20Lee.pdf
    Last edited by Albert Di Salvo; 01-30-11 at 06:19 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Let's turn to Taiwan. Are you familiar with the Wild Lilly Student Movement?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    You know what I think, I think you want the hard line Islamists to take over so they can persecute christians & attack the Jews because deep down you hate Jews just like the muslim brotherhood & Hitler. Am I right dude?
    Actually, i think the hardline islamists are ruthless hippocrites and losers, they dont interpret what they read correctly, and i doubt they have the brains and support of all the decent and rational muslims numbering a billion plus to take over, and allow them to make their lives a living hell, because in reality the majority of the muslims of the world just like other human beings just want to pay bills and raise their kids, when a puppet dictatator regime is installed for the interests of lets say for example of a western power or Israel, that gives the hardline islamists a foot hold, but you im sure as an educated man as you are already knew this, but you simply don't care or most likely dislike muslims because well their muslims, simple as that. As far as spelling is concerned yes i know muslim is not spelled mooslem. but if correcting grammer and punction makes you feel smart and superior by all means sir proceed.

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