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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #411
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I agree with this. I'm very thankful that the US has kept such a good relationship with Egypt's military (although our recent State Departments have really dropped the ball with supporting Mubarak for so long). The Egyptian military can and should be a force for stability in post-Mubarak Egypt. They can restore order, they can ensure that elections are truly free and fair, and if Islamists win then the military can serve as a moderating force in the nation's politics as it does in Turkey.
    There is nothing moderate about Islamism at all, just ask the Copts

    Just ask Anwar Sadat who was Egypts most moderate president in recent times and was killed by Islamists for making peace with Israel

    Ask Al Zawaheri (Al Qaeda's #2 and a former Egyptian muslim brotherhood member) if he feels any moderation
    towards anyone who doesnt think like him?

    Islamists in charge of Egypts military would be a disaster & may very well lead to another war.
    Last edited by Iron Yank; 01-30-11 at 12:25 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray_Fox_86 View Post
    No......basically I am under the impression that the MB would be better for Egypt than what its like under Mubarek. And the MB is not anywhere the level of what we see in Iran or Saudi Arabia. They are moderates.
    Ayman al Zawahiri is from the Muslim Brotherhood. He is now no. 2 in Al Qaeda.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    Egypt is not Jordan. Jordan is not Egypt. Why some of you folks infer that all ME nations are cookie-cutter entities is beyond me.

    I highly doubt Egyptians merely seek to swap one form of tyranny (Mubarak dictatorship) for another (Islamist dictatorship).
    Most revolutions go through several phases. And most are coopted by the most extremist forces.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank View Post
    There is nothing moderate about Islamism at all, just ask the Copts

    Just ask Anwar Sadat who was Egypts most moderate president in recent times and was killed by Islamists for making peace with Israel

    Ask Al Zawaheri (Al Qaeda's #2 and a former Egyptian muslim brotherhood member) if he feels any moderation
    towards anyone who doesnt think like him?
    I'm not sure where you got the impression that I thought the Muslim Brotherhood was moderate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank
    Islamists in charge of Egypts military would be a disaster & may very well lead to another war.
    Egypt is not the United States, where the democratically-elected government can be assumed to have control over the military. If Egypt elects Islamists and they want to do something stupid like go to war with Israel (which seems unlikely), the military will simply tell them no and/or stage a coup. Democratic institutions take time to build; we need not worry about Islamists controlling the military anytime soon.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-30-11 at 12:34 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Irrelevant. Funding terrorism and then saying you are not responsible for there actions is a scapegoat and its pathetic.
    When were the Americans funding terrorists?

    What's the BBC told you now?

    Who else but terrorists are responsible for their actions? Are you personally that easily swayed to commit terrorism against innocent people.

    Never mind your hyperbole and witless accusations, Let's have some facts.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not sure where you got the impression that I thought the Muslim Brotherhood was moderate?



    Egypt is not the United States, where the democratically-elected government can be assumed to have control over the military. If Egypt elects Islamists and they want to do something stupid like go to war with Israel (which seems unlikely), the military will simply tell them no and/or stage a coup. Democratic institutions take time to build; we need not worry about Islamists controlling the military anytime soon.
    When radical forces seize a revolution they always purge the officer class, and replace them. The only variation is what happened in Iran where the officer class was purged and a separate parallel revolutionary force was established, ie. the Pasdaran.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's true that we didn't pick their leaders, but we did a lot more than just "deal with them." Dealing with them implies that we're not happy about their leadership but we'll tolerate it for the sake of diplomacy, as we do with China. But is our relationship with the Egyptian government really equivalent to our relationship with the Chinese government? Of course not. We've actively supported Mubarak, we've sold him weapons, and we've at best offered tepid criticisms of his human rights abuses and rigging elections.
    Well, this is where we should have criticized more over the last 30 years. I believe we should be stressing the hell out of these leaders who get our support for stability. You should know that after what I've written over the years. But in the end, how far do we meddle before people start bitching about soveriegnty? But we are up against a bigger picture here. Remember the Cold War competition for control with the Soviets? Well, in 2007 the Nigerian government negotiated a $5 million load for a train system with the World Bank. The World Bank agreed on the condition that the government clean up the notoriously corrupt railway bureaucracy before it approved the loan. Along came the Chinese government and offerred the government $9 billion loan to rebuild the entire train system - with absolutely no strings attached at all. What do you think the Nigerian government did?

    In regards to Mubarak, we were delaing with a "pharaoh" system that had evolved throughout the Cold War. Washington messed up between 11/9 and 9/11 by pretending that there are no more threats and that we could withdraw from the world. My question here is what happens in future Egypt is China decides to swoop in with blank checks?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's rare for a nation (in ANY culture) to transition from dictatorship to democracy without the support of major democratic powers...
    And this is why I believe we have to be active in supporting it. I believe this in the same way I believe in Iraq (where they were stuck with "our" dictator and starving to death under UN applasue.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Indonesia is a Sunni Muslim democracy. Mali is a Sunni Muslim democracy.
    And as far away from the Sunni Arab heartland as possible. Ever notice how Muslims (and Christians for that matter) get more healthier the further away from this region they get? Take a look at what Turkey, Iran and even Egypt have in common. They were all converts and had a written history before Islam. The problem is the Sunni Arab in the heartland of the Middle East. Their history began with the Qu'ran. One might wonder what Chritianity in Europe might look like had there been no history before the Bible was written.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    When were the Americans funding terrorists?

    It comes down to convenience. The mujahideen were hardly terrorist when we were dealing with them on the field of combat against the Soviets. They were just religious nuts. But on 9/11, when they attacked civilians for the sake of political murder (the now named Tali-ban and Al-Queda) were. Of course, Al-Queda was named a terrorist organization back when they were murdering military personnel abroad throughout the 90s but who gave a **** about that.

    You see, the way this works is that if you can somehow show an American boot or check in the vicinity of today's offenders decades and decades ago then America gets the blame. God only knows what small thing today will one day pass hands, evolve, twist out, and culminate into another reason to drag the U.S. through the mud by our hypocritical critics who today look towards us to solve all the god damn problems that originally started with them.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-30-11 at 12:49 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not sure where you got the impression that I thought the Muslim Brotherhood was moderate?
    You seem to have the nieve assumption that if the brotherhood was elected to power that all of a sudden there would be free and fair elections in the future, if the people ever wanted something different. That would never happen, once they are in power you would never have a free & fair election again.


    Egypt is not the United States, where the democratically-elected government can be assumed to have control over the military. If Egypt elects Islamists and they want to do something stupid like go to war with Israel (which seems unlikely), the military will simply tell them no and/or stage a coup. Democratic institutions take time to build; we need not worry about Islamists controlling the military anytime soon.
    Another nieve assumption..... Look what happened in Iran....look what is slowly happening in Turkey where the secularists in the military are slowly being replaced with Islamists.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    I can assure you it raised a lot of ethical question marks on many European and probably American heads.

    The Americans and Soviets played a viscous game of tug of war without any regard for the rope. Now we have a country in shatters. I dont see what is so special about Afghanistan - or special enough - that they would think funding terrorism at the expense of the local population who had been ruled by a socialist figure anyway was a necessary evil.

    I do think Afghanistan is a victim of invasive meddling by many nations, not just the US.
    Anyone that thinks that the struggle was the USA vs the USSR is looking at life day by day or living in a vacuum and avoiding big picture thinking. The USSR had already announced intent of world domination and it had a curious habit of westward and southward expansion. Now why on earth would the Soviets be interested in a garden spot with such fantastic resources as Afghanistan? Was it just because they had an affinity for countries of the world ending in 'stan'? The reason why we had such a cozy investment with Iran and then later Iraq after Carter lost Iran is simply because we needed to maintain a land base against soviet expansion into the worlds oil fields. Not just for 'our' sake, but for everyones sake. Alliance with the rebels in Afghanistan simply made sense. It kept the Soviets fighting a virtually unwinnable war...it created a 'quagmire' for them. Much as people want to make it an ideological pissing match between communism and capitalism, it was far more than that.

    Sometimes...I wish there was a way to live in a bizarro world where the US did not get involved in ANY of the affairs of Europe or Asia. I wonder what it would look like...the success of Hitler, the uprising of Stalin. Life in a bubble where others have to make the hard decisions would be nice.

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