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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #401
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Not our problem. We support the french government. Does that mean the French owe their freedom to us or do they reserve such credit to their own culture? Why then are people so quick to allow cultures, that default to oppression, a way to escape their responsibilities?
    No culture "defaults to oppression," because culture itself is not an immutable fact of nature. Arab culture (and its tendency toward oppression) has been shaped by many things, including American demands for stability, Dutch Disease due to oil reserves in some countries, the Arab-Persian rivalry, and the chronic Israeli-Palestinian conflict and subsequent victimization complex.

    The US has the ability to affect Arab culture itself, for better or worse. The American role in Egypt for the past 30 years has not been one of our finest decisions, and I don't blame the protesters at all for being angry with us.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-30-11 at 11:55 AM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    Whoever controls the military controls the country. Thanks to the US the Egyption military is a major force.
    Good god.

    Every two years Egypt would host a military exercise for Arab and NATO militaries called Operation: Bright Star. I attended in 2001. Thanks to the US, the Egyptian military is more proffessional than the rest and they can be a very valuable tool in dealing with Egypt's future. Their refusal to simply turn violent upon their own people should say something.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Not our problem. We support the french government. Does that mean the French owe their freedom to us or do they reserve such credit to their own culture? Why then are people so quick to allow cultures, that default to oppression, a way to escape their responsibilities? Do we get to be given credit for cellular technology, which they are using to get information out? Do we get any credit what so ever for any of themodernized facilities in Egypt over the last 30 years that Egyptians rely upon and enjoy? No. But people will damn sure point out an F-16 or a gas canister.
    Sounds like you are perfecty content with oppressive governments using American made weapons to pacify and slaughter their civilians.

  4. #404
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Every two years Egypt would host a military exercise for Arab and NATO militaries called Operation: Bright Star. I attended in 2001. Thanks to the US, the Egyptian military is more proffessional than the rest and they can be a very valuable tool in dealing with Egypt's future. Their refusal to simply turn violent upon their own people should say something.
    I agree with this. I'm very thankful that the US has kept such a good relationship with Egypt's military (although our recent State Departments have really dropped the ball with supporting Mubarak for so long). The Egyptian military can and should be a force for stability in post-Mubarak Egypt. They can restore order, they can ensure that elections are truly free and fair, and if Islamists win then the military can serve as a moderating force in the nation's politics as it does in Turkey.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Their refusal to simply turn violent upon their own people should say something.
    This revolution has just begun. We will see how long their self control lasts and to who their loyalty belongs.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No culture "defaults to oppression," because culture itself is not an immutable fact of nature. Arab culture (and its tendency toward oppression) has been shaped by many things, including American demands for stability, Dutch Disease due to oil reserves in some countries, the Arab-Persian rivalry, and the chronic Israeli-Palestinian conflict and subsequent victimization complex.

    The US has the ability to affect Arab culture itself, for better or worse. The American role in Egypt for the past 30 years has not been one of our finest decisions, and I don't blame the protesters at all for being angry with us.
    Well, it's very true that their has been a lot of facilitation. And the US has had the ability to affect all the cultres of earth since the 1950s and "McWorld" was more than welcome. But let's be honest....

    Since the "Independence Era" in this region, they have largely decided upon their own leaders. We didn't begin the "Nasser monarchy." We merely dealt with what they produced from their own culture. We didn't enthrone the House of Saud. We didn't create the Baathist Party. And we certainly never prescribed oppression, which has been a product of their own fellow Muslims being unable to bring their societies into the modern age. It is very unfair to suggest that these people have haphazardly been the victims of foriegn devils and bear no resposnibility for themselves. The harsh truth is that their religion is far to contradictory to modern governance.

    And let's say that Egypt builds a perfect democracy in the next 5 years. Will we conduct business with their government? And in 15 years when things fall apart, will be blamed yet again for affecting their culture and not allowing the fanatic base to rise above their "oppressors?" I tire of the foriegn devil blame game.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-30-11 at 12:04 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Well, it's very true that their has been a lot of facilitation. But let's be honest....

    Since the "Independence Era" in this region, they have largely decided upon their own leaders. We didn't begin the "Nasser monarchy." We merely dealt with what they produced from their own culture. We didn't enthrone the House of Saud. We didn't create the Baathist Party. And we certainly never prescribed oppression, which has been a product of their own fellow Muslims being unable to bring their societies into the modern age.
    It's true that we didn't pick their leaders, but we did a lot more than just "deal with them." Dealing with them implies that we're not happy about their leadership but we'll tolerate it for the sake of diplomacy, as we do with China. But is our relationship with the Egyptian government really equivalent to our relationship with the Chinese government? Of course not. We've actively supported Mubarak, we've sold him weapons, and we've at best offered tepid criticisms of his human rights abuses and rigging elections.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    It is very unfair to suggest that these people have haphazardly been the victims of foriegn devils and bear no resposnibility for themselves.
    It's rare for a nation (in ANY culture) to transition from dictatorship to democracy without the support of major democratic powers...and our record in Egypt has not been very admirable. If the US had offered full support for democracy in the Arab world as it did in Eastern Europe and Latin America after the Cold War, we might see better results today. Instead we blame their culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    The harsh truth is that their religion is far to contradictory to modern governance.
    Indonesia is a Sunni Muslim democracy. Mali is a Sunni Muslim democracy.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    This revolution has just begun. We will see how long their self control lasts and to who their loyalty belongs.
    In terms of American blame, it doesn't matter. We didn't cause any of this and we haven't prescribed any social behavior along the way. None of our business deals came with instructions on how to use them against their own or how to commit genocide or any other thing individuals and cultures do to themselves. We aren't talking about children who bear no responsibility for themselves. These are adults. The French tortured hundreds of thousands of Algerians and sometimes used our weapon systems in their war. Are we to blame for what they did simply because of prior business deals? But if this were a Muslim government, we get all the blame, right? Some how, Arabs are exempt from being personally responsible? And as for the next power in Egypt.....will they refuse our business on principle or will they exactly what priors did because that is the way of governments and "stability?"

    If we get the credit for everything bad so easily, why then do we have to fight and struggle for any credit for the positives?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No culture "defaults to oppression," because culture itself is not an immutable fact of nature. Arab culture (and its tendency toward oppression) has been shaped by many things, including American demands for stability, Dutch Disease due to oil reserves in some countries, the Arab-Persian rivalry, and the chronic Israeli-Palestinian conflict and subsequent victimization complex.

    The US has the ability to affect Arab culture itself, for better or worse. The American role in Egypt for the past 30 years has not been one of our finest decisions, and I don't blame the protesters at all for being angry with us.
    You missed one important element responsible for Arab Culture's tendency towards oppression -- consanguinity.

    Until that aspect of Arab culture changes, it's just a case of new boss -- same as the old boss.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    Sounds like you are perfecty content with oppressive governments using American made weapons to pacify and slaughter their civilians.
    It's not that I'm OK with it. It's that I'm not such a bold hypocrit. You see, we don't get to bitch and moan and complain about our government meddling into the affairs of other governments and then bitch and moan and complain that we didn't after the fact. I'm sure plenty of militaries around the globe feed their soldiers with our food and use our medical supplies too. Of course, we will stay absolutely clear of the fact that most do not oppress their own and most have benefitted their people. We'll just focus on the convenience of television and drag the country through the mud. When Egypt singed the peace deal with Israel, did peoplelike you criticize the American support towards Egypt? Did any of you bitch and complain about Mubarak a decade ago? But now, CNN and FOX gets to show you an F-16 and blame comes across theocean to the foriegn devil.

    **** that.

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