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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #341
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    ..."he" said, and i stand correct.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But they would not win in the end. The modernists and Islamists both agree that the current trend must be passed into history. But they clash when it comes to the future. Islamists know that ultimately they fail where the people have a choice so they will fight in the name of religion and gather asmuch of the uneducated fools they can for support. They will go extreme and begin slaughtering even their own fellow Muslim (an offense to Islam). But, most in Egypt - not to mention the Middle East - want their "MTV" according to their own rules. They will not trade so easily one oppression for another once they have tasted what Muslims have been voicing for since the beginning of European colonialism. This is not to suggest that they wont stumble. But for all those who look for the strumble to define "failure" should remember that Napoleon wrecked out Europe and North Africa after the French declared independence from monarchy and before they achieved true stable democracy.
    Yes, I agree that the Islamists will fail eventually if for no other reason than the fractious groups within the religion will destroy each other. But they will certainly cause much grief until the movement does collapse, just as various other murderous movements have done.

    The Islamists are controlling the debate right now, especially in Europe, and that gives them a huge advantage over those who would speak out. Many public figures in the west who dare mention the problems with Islam, and some of the negative aspects it's having on the democracies, as well as Muslims, are being attacked from their own governments. In fact the truth, as has been pointed out more than once, is becoming 'hate speech'. That is not a good sign for the self hating democracies

    My feeling is it will get much much worse before it ever gets better. It seems we have to keep learning the same lesson over and over again.

  3. #343
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    This is the recipe for a destructive/non-objective answer.


    I'm still pissed about 9/11 and too much else to post now.
    But you gotta deal with the current situation without Strangling someone.


    I voted for Obama.
    His FP has been disappointing. Naive at best.


    The Liberal view is to withdraw, it's the conservative/neo-conservative position to have forward positions.
    Obama's critics in this respect are to his left.
    Tho Libertarians and Paleos would be OK withdrawals, mainstream Republicans wouldn't.


    Yeah, we're stuck with Iran. But maybe didn't have to be if we weren't over-extended elsewhere.
    You would leave A-stan obviously.

    I'm sure provisions are being made are already in place for all non-esential Americans to leave - if not gone already. Carrier off the coast no doubt too.

    I think you're over-reacting in that respect. I don't think it's 1979 Iran/Hostages.
    You're "political Nihilism" is evident here.

    But there's also the problem of just who's on the street now- apparently many are just thugs and unhappy residents of Cairo's desperately poor slums/looters. Some Jails have been emptied.
    Though surely a minority- we're still talking Big numbers in absolute terms.
    These are people who would 'revolt' against anything/anyone because of their conditions. Which aren't going to change unless Egypt's Birth rate does.

    and finally..
    I don't think you can lay this at Obama's feet -at least not yet.
    This is surely a No-win situation he didn't create.
    Very good post. Should I lay this at Obama's feet? Michael Moore is my meme. Michael and I are playing for keeps. He established the precedent. And now I say my prayers to Saint Saul Alinsky.

  4. #344
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, I agree that the Islamists will fail eventually if for no other reason than the fractious groups within the religion will destroy each other. But they will certainly cause much grief until the movement does collapse, just as various other murderous movements have done.

    The Islamists are controlling the debate right now, especially in Europe, and that gives them a huge advantage over those who would speak out. Many public figures in the west who dare mention the problems with Islam, and some of the negative aspects it's having on the democracies, as well as Muslims, are being attacked from their own governments. In fact the truth, as has been pointed out more than once, is becoming 'hate speech'. That is not a good sign for the self hating democracies

    My feeling is it will get much much worse before it ever gets better. It seems we have to keep learning the same lesson over and over again.
    sounds suspiciously close to 'muslims don't deserve to have self determination in their government'. terribly hypocritical coming from someone enjoying the liberty, and all the blood spilled for that liberty, in this country.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

  5. #345
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Leading to the conclusion that you don't know what you are talking about. Very little in the Middle East goes without affecting the region somehow. Their entire history is absolutely telling. Funny how you people are so quick to point out negativity throughout the region due to local events, but so very desperate to deny all things positive and pretend that borders without windows is the Middle East experience.
    I'm sorry, but answer the question, do you believe that the events in Iran had nothing to do with what happened in Iraq? Because, as you say, they're not Arab. Remember, as you said, the Iranian revolution couldn't influence the ME because the rest weren't Iranian. It's you who's setting up artificial borders.

    If you have a hypothesis, follow it to its conclusion, don't ad hom the argument which really makes you seem like you're ignorant on the subject.

  6. #346
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Yes, I agree that the Islamists will fail eventually if for no other reason than the fractious groups within the religion will destroy each other. But they will certainly cause much grief until the movement does collapse, just as various other murderous movements have done.

    The Islamists are controlling the debate right now, especially in Europe, and that gives them a huge advantage over those who would speak out. Many public figures in the west who dare mention the problems with Islam, and some of the negative aspects it's having on the democracies, as well as Muslims, are being attacked from their own governments. In fact the truth, as has been pointed out more than once, is becoming 'hate speech'. That is not a good sign for the self hating democracies

    My feeling is it will get much much worse before it ever gets better. It seems we have to keep learning the same lesson over and over again.
    Well, Europe is a whole 'nother affair.

    Maybe this is the price Middle Easterners have to pay. I have always believed that it was going to get worse too. They have spent three centuries being tossed about by outside forces and internal ones. Since the "Era of Independence" they have tried and failed to produce a viable future for themselves. One coup after another has ultimately failed as modernists and religious zealots clashed on what the proper path to prosperity is. A lot of failure in this region was facilitated by outsiders. Every experiment has failed and the only thing they haven't really tried is true democracy. This is a civilization that may as wellbeen bottled up and shook and shook and shook. Eventually the lid is going to come off and there is going be an immediate mess.

    Maybe in this new modern age of democracy and information over load they can finally achieve it because the mere illusion of it will no longer suffice. The Islamists have a modernizing and informed Middle East against them.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    while i'll agree that there's plenty of mis-educated (with a very liberal definition of that word), i must remind you that criticizing action made by the american government isn't anti-american, particularly if they're made in the hopes of perpetuating american ideals such as liberty and democracy. the argument that any criticisms of our government is antiamerican is exactly how germans kept people in line.
    It is when it's the just the Americans doing the heavy lifting being and being criticized for it while all other governments stand on the sidelines. Seldom, especially on the Left, do i see blame attached to where it's deserved. Americans will be held responsible for "creating" Osama bin laden rather than blaming the actual perpetrator himself. This is just one example but there are scores like it. And criticizing those who disagree with you as "German" is nonsense. You're saying your piece and I'm saying mine..

    of course we can't claim that this is entirely the fault of americans, mubarak himself is egyption in fact.
    Quite
    however as americans we should take a critical look at the results of our actions around the world.
    And if you did take a serious look at Americans actions around the world you, as an American, should be very pleased and proud.
    the tentacles of the US spread all over the place, so our actions have repercussions everywhere. if we arm and provide aid to an illegitimate dictator, we are at fault for aiding the oppression in that country, even if you think we're doing it to aid them.
    As often happens. the best solution may not be the perfect solution. We'll see what happens when Mubarak leaves and what replaces him before we do any celebrating.

    If the American government had their way all countries and societies would be democratic, and I doubt you'd argue with that.

    that statements makes me wonder what you think our foreign policy efforts are for. if you think our efforts are to extend liberty, democracy, and the associated prosperity with it, i'd ask you how does arming and aiding illegitimate dictatorships the world over accomplishes that?
    Because some dictators and dictatorships are worse than others. For example, we could ask ourselves whether Mubarak was a threat to his neighbours, like Saddam Hussein, or had international political ambitions, like Fidel Castro. Mubarak, compared to those dictators, was quite liberal.
    on the other hand if you think our foreign policy effort are to get us cheap resources and labor i fail to see how that is in everyone's best interest, with all the poverty and slavery going on in the world that we support. (a reminder, just a few days ago before the protests heated up, mubarak sent police into the factories in cairo to tell people to get back to work, people that are starving because they can't afford food. that is slavery)
    I don't believe Americans or their governments are against human rights. Quite the contrary. But in the real world we must have realistic expectations. Let the French or Germans, Japanese or Brazilians concern themselves with these problem for a while, and they can take the world's condemnations about not doing a proper job of it.

    this again is a form of conditional democracy. you're all for democracy as long as they put a pro-US government in place.
    What do you mean by "pro-US"?

    this isn't democracy at all. if you believe in self determination and free will, you have to allow these people to pick their own leadership.
    And yet, when the US introduced democracy to Iraq millions, especially the Left, were against it. How do you figure that? And do you seriously believe dictatorships are picked by the people?

    if the people don't like the idea of a foreign power having so much military power in their part of the world more than likely they'll put in a leadership that will oppose that. imagine how much more likely they'd be to have a democratically elected leadership that is pro-US if after WW2 when the western powers were forced to give up their colonies in the area, instead of the US funding a puppet dictator, we allowed the people to be self determining.
    it seems clear you are poorly informed about post war Europe and Japan. This is not worth discussing.
    please don't take my statements lightly, i believe in america and our ideals. it's just apparent that we don't project those ideals all over the world. we have military bases in 75 foreign countries, imagine what kind of government we'd elect if china, russia, iran, and north korea all had military bases in canada... if you truely support the idea of liberty and self determination rather than the divine providence of american military might you have to allow people to do what they want, even if it's not exactly what you would do.
    That's as vapid and ridiculous as BHO's state of the union speech. Saying nothing while using trite cliches seems to be the fashion these days.

  8. #348
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Wiggle your way out why dont you. I dont believe that by the way and thank you for conceding defeat in the truthfulness test.
    You're watching way too much BBC.

    The Americans helped the French also against invaders. So too with the Brits, Belch, and so on. Does that make the Americans responsible for British terrorists?

    Terrorists are responsible for their actions, not the Americans.

    What craziness!

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    sounds suspiciously close to 'muslims don't deserve to have self determination in their government'. terribly hypocritical coming from someone enjoying the liberty, and all the blood spilled for that liberty, in this country.
    What it "sounds suspiciously close to" to you is of no interest or significance to me. I'll go by what I said, not what some stranger thinks I said.

    And, laughably, you do a riff on what you think I might have sad while ignoring what I actually said. Incredible!

  10. #350
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But there is a probable scenario and it is based on the mood of the majority of these people and their modernist thinking military. The details will cause speed bumps but the general probability should be clear. Like the Iranians (who are nationalistic) and the Turks (who are nationalistic), they have a recorded history that goes back before Islam. Egyptians were "colonized" just like the Iranians and the Turks by Arab Sunni agendas. The current Islamist movement inside Egypt only has so much power and so much room to navigate before they clash up against the overwhelming majority who have been very clear with their demands.

    People are too quick to use Iran to serve up their negative commentary. But Iran's movement was full of religious zealousy and were willing to accept anything other than what the Shah was doing. Egypt seems to have a clear direction other than Sharia that it wants to travel.
    I agree with you that this is NOT Iran and am thus heartened by the PROSPECT that it could be more like Turkey than Iran. However, only the foolish would ignore the possibility that the Muslim Brotherhood steps in and, while not of the same ilk as the Shi'a leaders in Iran, would not exactly be 21st century democrats that would respect international law, their own agreements with Israel or the international passage rights in the Suez and Gulf of Eilat.
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