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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #311
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    FYI, the invasion was NOT illegal and was in conformity with UNSC resolutions...

    Though I agree with your point that it likely was a small part at best to what happened in Tunisia, but I would not argue that it had NO part in it. Surely Tunisians DID see images of Iraqis voting and that, combined with the government's inability to provide for its people in tough times, likely together provided the impetus for the current events in Tunis and throughout Tunisia.



    The neo-conservative cabal that diabolically pulled the strings in the Bush administration made many claims about their illegal invasion of Iraq.

    (That was a fun sentence to write, by the way. Really takes you back, doesn't it?)

    One of the claims was: a free and democratic Iraq might inspire other democratic movements in the region. The only other free country in the neighborhood is Israel, went the thinking, so maybe Arab and Muslim countries need a democracy to call their own.

    Sowing democracy in an anti-democratic region struck some as naive, and maybe even stupid. It would be destabilizing. Autocratic regimes that were reliably sane might fall, and be replaced by crazier Iran-revolutionary kind of loonies.

    It boiled down to this basic argument: Destabilizing the region is too risky -- the upside is murky and the downside is disastrous. Democracy is a good thing, but it'll have to come gradually, through slow and steady diplomacy with corrupt, autocratic regimes. And the counter-argument: Destabilizing the region is necessary -- corrupt, autocratic regimes in the region have created the culture of paranoia and they've exported their nutjobs to the United States, to take flying lessons on student visas. It's time for bold action.

    The neo-con dreamers won that argument. Iraq is now a shaky, sometimes violent democracy. (But then, so is Baltimore.)

    As the great Jennifer Rubin wrote in WaPo:

    Even President Obama and his secretary of state recognized the remarkable achievement [of Iraq's democratic government]. Each released statements praising the Iraqis' accomplishment.

    It's hard to miss the irony: The candidate who wanted to accelerate U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq, which likely would have doomed the country to chaos and genocide, is now sounding indistinguishable from his predecessor.


    Two more data points. 1. The corrupt, autocratic regime in Tunisia has held one-party power since 1956. Until a couple of weeks ago. And 2. The corrupt, autocratic regime in Egypt has been in power since 1981. But that's looking shaky, as of this morning.


    If events in Tunisia have inspired events in Egypt, what inspired the events in Tunisia?

    Hard to say, of course. But perhaps a small nod and a tip of the hat is due to the diabolical neo-cons, and the naive president they conned into trying this absurd gamble on democracy.


    Iraq, Tunisia, Egypt: These Things Have Nothing to Do With Each Other - Ricochet.com
    Of course, we'll just mention all the political upheaval across the regtion between Iraq and Tunisia that forced regimes like in Saudi Arabia to allow low level elections and more freedom totheir women.

    ...And actually, Rumsfeld and Cheney were no NeoCons, but the author is being more honest about the reality than some who need Iraq to be pointless to the end.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-29-11 at 08:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Considering the overwhelming drive of the people and somewhat "backing" of the military...they don't have a choice. And this is what the fear mongering analysts seem to dismiss in their haste to celebrate their petrified state over instability.
    One the one hand, I agree that the military has the POTENTIAL to play a constructive role to preserve democracy as it does in Turkey. However, there are so many unknowns now and for ANYONE to say that they KNOW is what is going to happen is simply not realistic (other than the fact that Mubaracks days -- perhaps hours -- are numbered). What role will the military play? Will El baredei be able to set up a working interim government with real elections? Will the Muslim Brotherhood fill in a void of El Baradei is unable to do that? What are the actual proclivities of military leaders? Will there be a schism in the military? Can you HONESTLY answer those questions? I doubt very many can do anything more than speculate.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I do not have Obama's best interests at heart. I do not have the American Left's best interests at heart. I have been radicalized by the Left.
    This is the recipe for a destructive/non-objective answer.

    Political nihilism is the path that I am on. Michael Moore, Harry Reid and a host of other leftists have established the precedent that foreign policy crises can be used for domestic political purposes. Once established, the precedent remains in effect. They introduced a deadly toxin into the bloodstream of the body politic. As a result America is paralyzed. That's fine with me. Over the precipice we go together.
    I'm still pissed about 9/11 and too much else to post now.
    But you gotta deal with the current situation without Strangling someone.

    The skill set required to achieve electoral victory in America is entirely different from the skill set needed to govern successfully. It should be obvious that Obama has no more experience in foreign policy than the local plumber. His advisors are all from a very narrow slice of the Democratic Party. He needs better advisors imo.
    I voted for Obama.
    His FP has been disappointing. Naive at best.

    Obama must recognize that America is broke, is no longer capable of maintaining the web of institutional and other relationships that constitute the American Empire, and that the political and other divisions in the country prevent effective action.

    Long Term Objective: Abandon his reliance on the Liberal Internationalist School of Foreign Policy. Withdraw from the eastern hemisphere completely except for normal trade. Slash the American military to the bone. Renew the American economy and people.
    The Liberal view is to withdraw, it's the conservative/neo-conservative position to have forward positions.
    Obama's critics in this respect are to his left.
    Tho Libertarians and Paleos would be OK withdrawals, mainstream Republicans wouldn't.

    Mid Term Objective: America must accommodate the nascent Iranian Empire because American internal political paralysis prevents America from coping effectively with Iranian strategy and tactics. If they stay out of the western hemisphere we will withdraw from and stay out of the eastern hemisphere.
    Yeah, we're stuck with Iran. But maybe didn't have to be if we weren't over-extended elsewhere.
    You would leave A-stan obviously.

    Short Term Objective: Quietly get all Americans out of Egypt. Say very little. Liquidate American investments in Egypt and the Greater Middle East. Let events in Egypt take their own course. American foreign policy has embittered the Egyptian people. Because of that this will not turn out well for America. Imo there will either be a military coup in Egypt or there will be a revolution which will be coopted by the Muslim Brotherhood. GTFO ASAP.
    I'm sure provisions are being made are already in place for all non-esential Americans to leave - if not gone already. Carrier off the coast no doubt too.

    I think you're over-reacting in that respect. I don't think it's 1979 Iran/Hostages.
    You're "political Nihilism" is evident here.

    But there's also the problem of just who's on the street now- apparently many are just thugs and unhappy residents of Cairo's desperately poor slums/looters. Some Jails have been emptied.
    Though surely a minority- we're still talking Big numbers in absolute terms.
    These are people who would 'revolt' against anything/anyone because of their conditions. Which aren't going to change unless Egypt's Birth rate does.

    and finally..
    I don't think you can lay this at Obama's feet -at least not yet.
    This is surely a No-win situation he didn't create.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-29-11 at 08:44 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    This is the biggest problem. People hate America, mostly, because they're uninformed.

    The United States never supported the Taliban during the Afghan-Soviet War. UBL never worked for the CIA.

    If you want to complain about what the United States did wrong in Afghanistan, you would be more accurate to say that we didn't maintain our support for the Northern Alliance. Had we done that, the NA could have wiped out the Taliban.
    Sorry, the misinformed one is you. The US DID aid terrorists, even if you don't think they did it back then, Washington's decision in May 2001 to financially reward Afghanistan's infamous Taliban government for its edict ordering a halt to the cultivation of opium poppies is just another example...

    Sure, they just rewarded the "Afghan government" a large stipend, which is strange....considering the government there didn't enforce the policy but the Taliban did, and it was obvious by then the Taliban received much help via redirected foreign aid.

    The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. There are many sources to prove you wrong and it is unfortunate you have instead chosen to revise what really happened.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 01-29-11 at 08:31 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    One the one hand, I agree that the military has the POTENTIAL to play a constructive role to preserve democracy as it does in Turkey. However, there are so many unknowns now and for ANYONE to say that they KNOW is what is going to happen is simply not realistic (other than the fact that Mubaracks days -- perhaps hours -- are numbered). What role will the military play? Will El baredei be able to set up a working interim government with real elections? Will the Muslim Brotherhood fill in a void of El Baradei is unable to do that? What are the actual proclivities of military leaders? Will there be a schism in the military? Can you HONESTLY answer those questions? I doubt very many can do anything more than speculate.
    But there is a probable scenario and it is based on the mood of the majority of these people and their modernist thinking military. The details will cause speed bumps but the general probability should be clear. Like the Iranians (who are nationalistic) and the Turks (who are nationalistic), they have a recorded history that goes back before Islam. Egyptians were "colonized" just like the Iranians and the Turks by Arab Sunni agendas. The current Islamist movement inside Egypt only has so much power and so much room to navigate before they clash up against the overwhelming majority who have been very clear with their demands.

    People are too quick to use Iran to serve up their negative commentary. But Iran's movement was full of religious zealousy and were willing to accept anything other than what the Shah was doing. Egypt seems to have a clear direction other than Sharia that it wants to travel.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-29-11 at 08:37 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Sorry, the misinformed one is you. The US DID fund the Taliban, even if you don't think they did it back then, Washington's decision in May 2001 to financially reward Afghanistan's infamous Taliban government for its edict ordering a halt to the cultivation of opium poppies is just another example...

    Sure, they just rewarded the "Afghan government" a large stipend, which is strange....considering the government there didn't enforce the policy but the Taliban did, and it was obvious by then the Taliban received much help via redirected foreign aid.
    After the war against the Soviets, the U.S. largely simply looked away until 9/11. This is what non-meddling does (for which we are obviously also criticized for apparently).

    We also deal with European governments. Are we to be held accountable for what their cultures do? How much Chinese oppression shall America be blamed for? Only in the Middle East will you find people around the world so eager to paint an American flag across their oppressions. But remove one dictator and facilitate democracy and we are still "wrong."

    My point is that noneof these governments inthe ME are any different from governments around the world that gets a phone call from Washington. The same is true for themany business deals every single nation out there has with each other. In the end, local culture is to blame. It's just become fashionable to use us as the popular scapegoat.

    Mark my words - if the Egyptian people succeed, any instability and speed bump along their path will be used to criticize merica for not doing something to support Mubarak. And if Mubarak succeeds, America will be criticized for "supporting" Mubarak and be even more hated by Egyptians who still need a scapegoat to avoid the mirror. And how many in the world will support their claims and legitimize extremist rhetoric?
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-29-11 at 08:36 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Yea, you stand for the weapons and ammo being used to kill the protesters at the moment... Made in the USA is stamped on all of them (literally), and the people know this.

    The people do not see any American's protesting in the US for the Egyptian people.. (hell we dont even see it over here), they see what Mubarak allows them to see and what the radical islamists allow them to know.

    We can hope that a moderate secular government and nation comes out of this.. but I am not betting the bank on it that is for sure. At least it wont be the cluster**** of Iraq over again.
    What world do you live in? Where do you get these deranged ideas?

    See these guys? They're Egyptian soldiers. See the weapons they're carrying? Those are Soviet style AK-47's, probably built at the the same Soviet licensed factory in Egypt that made AK's for the Muja's.



    The reason so many people around the world hate America, is because there are alot of people around the world that are totally misinformed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The reason so many people around the world hate America, is because there are alot of people around the world that are totally misinformed.
    Don't kid yourself, the tear gas where US made and that was confirmed on the BBC just last night.

    Not too sure they where sold to Egypt knowing that it would be redirected to police forces for use against protesters though - in all fairness, that is.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE=kaya'08;1059252504]Sorry, the misinformed one is you. The US DID aid terrorists, even if you don't think they did it back then, Washington's decision in May 2001 to financially reward Afghanistan's infamous Taliban government for its edict ordering a halt to the cultivation of opium poppies is just another example...[quote]

    This is true and that deal was cut back in the 90's, not in 2001. It's far cry from, "creating the Taliban".

    Sure, they just rewarded the "Afghan government" a large stipend, which is strange....considering the government there didn't enforce the policy but the Taliban did, and it was obvious by then the Taliban received much help via redirected foreign aid.

    The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. There are many sources to prove you wrong and it is unfortunate you have instead chosen to revise what really happened.
    LOL...there was no mujahadeen, prior to the Soviet invasion. You foreigners sure do get your hands on bad information. It comes as no surprise.

    The United States gave money, weapons and training to Sha Massoud's forces, which later became The Northern Alliance, our allies in the fight against the Taliban in 2002.

    Ya'll really need to stop spreading the lies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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