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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #271
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    From an apartment in Downtown Toronto, protest happening at this very second, just took the video.

    I'll take more when I get on the ground and post them.

    Last edited by Jetboogieman; 01-29-11 at 03:27 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    This is the biggest problem. People hate America, mostly, because they're uninformed.
    You are being too kind, Apdst.

    Most of these people, though able to walk upright, speak and read, are simply mis-educated. What they have learned from their familiar sources is wrong. Thus, even in the first world where information is easily available, we have anti Americanism from people who seriously ought to know better. In this latest crisis with the rioting Egyptians, as we can see, it's not the fault of the Egyptians, or their governments, educational system, culture, etc., it's the fault of the Americans. And they say this with a confidence only the woefully uniformed and stupifyingly ignorant can muster.

    These responses encourage the idea that civilized man isn't far removed from the cave. We can teach people to read and write, and a monkey to distinguish colours in order to get a piece of fruit, but it's still far removed rational thought. They press a button saying "The Americans did it" only because its easy and they get instant reward, from the likeiminded other monkeys.

    What they don't appear to realize is that is that it is in the interests of everyone that Americans succeed in their foreign policy efforts. If they fail we'll all suffer as a consequence.

    Many supported Nazism during WWII, the Communists during the Cold War, and will not even say an unkind word against the Islamofacists of today. Yet should the Islamists take over Egypt and the Middle East, these same people will also blame American foreign policy for their policy failures. They never support the Americans in their endeavours but only criticize with their 20/20 hindsight, even if it means misrepresenting the facts in order to do so.

    Put up the barricades, cease further emigration and allow the Islamists to take control of the Middle East and then Europe. We can watch it all on out big screen TV's.
    Last edited by Grant; 01-29-11 at 03:27 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Here is what is coming in Egypt, IMO.

    The people of Iran wanted a duly elected, civil government, and still do. The vast majority of rioters and protestors in Iran were not Islamic radicals. All it takes are a few well placed radical leaders blending in with the populace to take control when the void occurs. They claim power in the name of the people. They swear to have immediate elections as soon as possible and things calm down. They take control of the military and the police and before the people know it, the extremists are running the country.

    That happened in Iran and will happen in Egypt as HUGE amounts of money and support from Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Iran and other Arab Muslim nations will pour in.

    That money will go to the religious leaders who will prop up the econmomy and look like heroes. They will remain in power and be convert Egypt into another religious Islamic state.
    You nailed it. If this wasn't instigated by the Islamists it will certainly be to their benefit. It's a putsch.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post

    You support an anti-democratic dictator Muberak, maybe it's people like you we should be worried about.

    I don't hate the United States, I actually quite like it, but what is happening in Egypt should be none of your concern, the people will decide. The people always decide.
    So you feel that the Russians decided on Stalin, the Chinese on Mao, the Cubans on Castro and the Iraqis on Saddam?

    What's happening in Egypt and the Middle east should be everyone's concern and only the hopelessly naive would believe otherwise.

  5. #275
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Put up the barricades, cease further emigration and allow the Islamists to take control of the Middle East and then Europe. We can watch it all on out big screen TV's.
    Until we are forced to learn the lessons we have learned time and again already, which is that our security has always relied upon the stability and health of foriegn regions. Eventually standing by and pretending that we don't have to be involved in their messes only costs more American lives and treasure. There's a reason that we created the League ofNations and the United Nations. Since they were created even after we had achieved the greatest power in the world and then in history, it was more for their benefits than ours. Eventually, these people would just suck us out again.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You nailed it. If this wasn't instigated by the Islamists it will certainly be to their benefit. It's a putsch.
    But they would not win in the end. The modernists and Islamists both agree that the current trend must be passed into history. But they clash when it comes to the future. Islamists know that ultimately they fail where the people have a choice so they will fight in the name of religion and gather asmuch of the uneducated fools they can for support. They will go extreme and begin slaughtering even their own fellow Muslim (an offense to Islam). But, most in Egypt - not to mention the Middle East - want their "MTV" according to their own rules. They will not trade so easily one oppression for another once they have tasted what Muslims have been voicing for since the beginning of European colonialism. This is not to suggest that they wont stumble. But for all those who look for the strumble to define "failure" should remember that Napoleon wrecked out Europe and North Africa after the French declared independence from monarchy and before they achieved true stable democracy.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-29-11 at 03:45 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Uh-oh.....Yemenese are forming to protest at the Egyptian Embassy in Yemen to show solidarity with the Egyptian people. More and more and more throughout this region that I have been told has no link to each other. Western thinkers just can't grasp that the Western perspective of borders does not define these people. And as we all know, the history of change in this region started in 2010? Ha.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    It would be temporary. If this were the Cold War, we would be stuck rushing towards them to beat the Soviets so that we could prop up our own "stability." But this is not the Cold War. Even the mighty French took 70 years or so to get Democracy right and they elected an rampaging Emperor along the way (coencidentally invading Egypt too).
    History does repeat itself and some never learn.

    The Iranians also revolted against the Shah claiming he was a tyrant. It was fueled by Islamic extremists who were the minority at the time. The economy was also hurting and the separation between the very rich and very poor was high.

    The extremists in Iran worked on the students who were easy to rile up. Then they started getting the poor involved. Riots tend to self generate as everyone has a gripe and since others are taking to the streets, they might as well, too.

    Before you know it, it is a full fledged revolt against a current regime that takes on its own image of being against the tyranny of the current regime and blaming all of the ills that had befallen the nation on that one man.

    This is EXACTLY what is happening in Egypt today. For more than a year, students at Egyptian Universities have been riled up. The economy is down the tubes and the average Egyptian is living on $2.00 per day and food is going way past that. So now it is the students and the poor, and the revolt is on its way to dethrone the tyrant.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    You are being too kind, Apdst.

    Most of these people, though able to walk upright, speak and read, are simply mis-educated. What they have learned from their familiar sources is wrong. Thus, even in the first world where information is easily available, we have anti Americanism from people who seriously ought to know better.
    while i'll agree that there's plenty of mis-educated (with a very liberal definition of that word), i must remind you that criticizing action made by the american government isn't anti-american, particularly if they're made in the hopes of perpetuating american ideals such as liberty and democracy. the argument that any criticisms of our government is antiamerican is exactly how germans kept people in line.
    In this latest crisis with the rioting Egyptians, as we can see, it's not the fault of the Egyptians, or their governments, educational system, culture, etc., it's the fault of the Americans. And they say this with a confidence only the woefully uniformed and stupifyingly ignorant can muster.
    of course we can't claim that this is entirely the fault of americans, mubarak himself is egyption in fact. however as americans we should take a critical look at the results of our actions around the world. the tentacles of the US spread all over the place, so our actions have repercussions everywhere. if we arm and provide aid to an illegitimate dictator, we are at fault for aiding the oppression in that country, even if you think we're doing it to aid them.
    These responses encourage the idea that civilized man isn't far removed from the cave. We can teach people to read and write, and a monkey to distinguish colours in order to get a piece of fruit, but it's still far removed rational thought. They press a button saying "The Americans did it" only because its easy and they get instant reward, from the likeiminded other monkeys.

    What they don't appear to realize is that is that it is in the interests of everyone that Americans succeed in their foreign policy efforts. If they fail we'll all suffer as a consequence.
    that statements makes me wonder what you think our foreign policy efforts are for. if you think our efforts are to extend liberty, democracy, and the associated prosperity with it, i'd ask you how does arming and aiding illegitimate dictatorships the world over accomplishes that? on the other hand if you think our foreign policy effort are to get us cheap resources and labor i fail to see how that is in everyone's best interest, with all the poverty and slavery going on in the world that we support. (a reminder, just a few days ago before the protests heated up, mubarak sent police into the factories in cairo to tell people to get back to work, people that are starving because they can't afford food. that is slavery)
    Many supported Nazism during WWII, the Communists during the Cold War, and will not even say an unkind word against the Islamofacists of today. Yet should the Islamists take over Egypt and the Middle East, these same people will also blame American foreign policy for their policy failures. They never support the Americans in their endeavours but only criticize with their 20/20 hindsight, even if it means misrepresenting the facts in order to do so.

    Put up the barricades, cease further emigration and allow the Islamists to take control of the Middle East and then Europe. We can watch it all on out big screen TV's.
    this again is a form of conditional democracy. you're all for democracy as long as they put a pro-US government in place. this isn't democracy at all. if you believe in self determination and free will, you have to allow these people to pick their own leadership. if the people don't like the idea of a foreign power having so much military power in their part of the world more than likely they'll put in a leadership that will oppose that. imagine how much more likely they'd be to have a democratically elected leadership that is pro-US if after WW2 when the western powers were forced to give up their colonies in the area, instead of the US funding a puppet dictator, we allowed the people to be self determining.

    please don't take my statements lightly, i believe in america and our ideals. it's just apparent that we don't project those ideals all over the world. we have military bases in 75 foreign countries, imagine what kind of government we'd elect if china, russia, iran, and north korea all had military bases in canada... if you truely support the idea of liberty and self determination rather than the divine providence of american military might you have to allow people to do what they want, even if it's not exactly what you would do.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    History does repeat itself and some never learn.

    The Iranians also revolted against the Shah claiming he was a tyrant. It was fueled by Islamic extremists who were the minority at the time. The economy was also hurting and the separation between the very rich and very poor was high.

    The extremists in Iran worked on the students who were easy to rile up. Then they started getting the poor involved. Riots tend to self generate as everyone has a gripe and since others are taking to the streets, they might as well, too.

    Before you know it, it is a full fledged revolt against a current regime that takes on its own image of being against the tyranny of the current regime and blaming all of the ills that had befallen the nation on that one man.

    This is EXACTLY what is happening in Egypt today. For more than a year, students at Egyptian Universities have been riled up. The economy is down the tubes and the average Egyptian is living on $2.00 per day and food is going way past that. So now it is the students and the poor, and the revolt is on its way to dethrone the tyrant.
    No it's not "exactly" what is happening in Egypt. C'mon. Turn your CNN and FOX off (I'm hearing the same BS from the same ignorant narrow minded fools you are). The intellectuals of Iran placed all their hopes on the religious movement because that was the bold opposition. They backed a horse (Khomeini) that they thought they could control and many of them wound up executed for it after the fact when they discovered that they were wrong.

    There is no religious "horse" rallying the Egyptian people and no intellectual backing of him. This is a mob scene that is absolutely focused on future democracy and the fact that their political demands have been heard coming out of other societies throughout the region for years, unites these Arab people above the sentiment of Islamist environment. The fact that Islamists exist within the crowd does not mean that "Khoemeini" is back. These are the Sunni for one, not Shia. It is true that virtually all of our religious extremist foes over the last 20 years have ben Sunni Arabs, but it was the Sunni who began their "government" through a sense of democracy after Muhammad died.

    What you are seeing on television by dimwitted American analysts who have never set foot in to the region is the same sense of petrified fear you saw when the Soviet Union crumbled. We spent decades trying to crack the Soviet Union apart and when it finally did, we rushed to hold them up for of instability. We preach and preach about the dictators and religious regimes of the Middle East, but rush to criticize anything that threatens to destabilize the region. We are doing the same thing now with Egypt as we weigh the options of supporting the given government or supporting the people who may have to go through some destabilization to achieve true stability.

    I say we should begin praising this kind of de-stabilization and **** all those who wish to criticize out of a fear of instability. No great or progressive nation rose without working out a period of de-stabilization. Why we continue to preach for change in the Middle East, but quickly default to caution and a want to go back once we get uncomfortable with it is beyond me. It's win/win for us. We support the people. If they win, we win. If they lose, Mubarak will continue to do business with the most powerful economy and influence in the world. If we do not support these people morally with conviction and volume, then we deserve the hypocritical criticisms we receive from Europeans and other global Leftists.

    Our best move (I would assume that Pentagon officials have my brain), is to allow our military commanders to contact the Egyptian military commanders. This will guarantee our position in whatever future.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-29-11 at 05:11 PM.

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