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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #241
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    It's tiring.
    The "we created Osama" crowd.. and it's twin.. "we supported Saddam".

    Of course, as part of the Cold War we did help the Afghan resistance, and in our fight fight against "Death-to-America" Iran we supported Iraq/Saddam in that War.
    Some have convenient memory loss, or no/selective knowledge of recent history.

    One does what one has to in the world (and unlike other countries, the USA doesn't have the luxury of doing nothing)
    and if those groups Later morph into something else or do something despicable, one adjusts one's position.

    Blaming the USA for what these two became subsequently is the typical carping of the despicable left (or Euro-liberal).
    You could of course do nothing. Whether that's the right thing to do in the end is another question entirely.

  2. #242
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Yes, but I can also note a meaningless correlation where all those Arab and Iranian leaders who condemned 9/11 eventually began feeling pressure from their own people.

    Such a thing would be a desperate attempt to deny. 9/11 was an obvious offense and the governments merely agreed with most of their people. There was no local harm in it - in fact, it helped to legitimize them. But allowing a free and democratic Iraq in the heartland of oppression paradise is a local threat throughout. Do you actually believe that the House of Saud or the "pharaoh" of Egypt wants a free Arab nation to instigate political change in their own locales? None of this was going to happen without Iraq. Right now, the narrow minded will go ahead and lift Tunisia's example as the spark. Some are even skipping Iraq to go back to Iran's revolution (which isn't even an Arab nation). The mood to deny Iraq it's significance (for fear of having to look in the mirror) is becoming desperate.

    Make no mistake. As Iraq improves, these surrounding governments will all receive more and more social pressure to change. Modernists have never been so significant as they have been over the last 5 years. They have never been able to grab as much support. And none of these governments have ever been so willing to bend as much. There is far too much local voice since the much televised "purple finger" for people to deny it's role. It's been a dominoe of events. One can only dream of what Egypt's example will serve elesewhere in this region.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-29-11 at 01:41 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    You could of course do nothing. Whether that's the right thing to do in the end is another question entirely.
    In the mean time the entire world's oil supply goes to ****. Doing nothing is not an option for America. But there is a way to do the right thing. When people default to "you can't bomb into submission" this is exactly the kind of event that we can use. The people in the West are the power and even Leftist preach this. But when it comes to the Middle East we have a Cold War tradition (that was inherited from Euroipean colonialism) that has us only seeing governments. Times are changing and it began in 2003. Without healthy options to express political grievances, they will resort to violence and use religion to legitimize it.

    Egyptians want democracy andsocial justice. Tunisia wants democracy and social justice. Sauds want democracy and social justice. One wonders if any of this steam would exist if Iraq's success did not exist. The region is tied and pretending that it is, with the exception of Iraq, is not only dishonest, but criminal.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-29-11 at 01:35 PM.

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  4. #244
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Some are blaming us for supporting Mubarrak.. and his downfall.

    Has Egypt really been that bad for the last 30 years?
    On balance, I'd say we did the right thing.
    If perhaps not pushing harder/sooner for purer democracy.
    In case you missed last 30 years (and not 3 days), Egypt has basically been referrred to as a moderate, successful Arab country.

    While certainly not perfect-- one only needs look at Egypt's Arab neighbors in any direction.
    To the West, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria (Civil War), etc
    To the immediate South, Sudan (Civil War Genocide).
    To the East, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq/Saddam, Saudi Arabia, etc
    Egypt could have been an Islamist bloodbath, at war with neighbors etc.

    'Our' strongman wasn't that bad as Arab leaders/natural tendencies go.
    Egypt has had a decent modern outlook and development, if not perfect by Western Standards.

    So now if "we lose Egypt", it might only be to Egypt's original tendencies. Pan-Arabism or Islamism.
    In the meantime/30-years, it's had more modern development and maybe/Ergo we'll "lose it" to "Our" net-connected young democrats.
    Last edited by mbig; 01-29-11 at 01:49 PM.
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  5. #245
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Such a thing would be a desperate attempt to deny. 9/11 was an obvious offense and the governments merely agreed with most of their people. There was no local harm in it. But allowing a free and democratic Iraq in the heartland of oppression paradise is a local threat throughout. Do you actually believe that the House of Saud or the "pharaoh" of Egypt wants a free Arab nation to instigate political change in their own locales? None of this was going to happen without Iraq. Right now, the narrow minded will go ahead and lift Tunisia's example as the spark. Some are even skipping Iraq to go back to Iran's revolution (which isn't even an Arab nation). The mood to deny Iraq it's significance (for fear of having to look in the mirror) is becoming desperate.
    Are you then saying that the protests in Iran had nothing to do with what happened in Iraq then, since they're not Arab? I don't think events like this are as tribalistic as you assume.

    I'm one of those people who think that the American Revolution in of itself would precipitate the collapse of European empires in the twentieth century regardless of a lack of cultural ties on the part of some of the revolters or the long stretch in time separating the two events. Moreover, I find it far more likely that people are inspired by people like themselves revolting rather than a foreign military doing it for them. It certainly leads to a stronger national identity.

  6. #246
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    So all those OPINIONS are credible because that is what you want to believe? Did you read the 9/11 Report that discussed the Taliban, al Qaeda, and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan? Looks to me like someone trying to sell books.
    senator max cleland on the 9/11 commission (of which he's a former member), "I as a member of the commission cannot look any American in the eye, especially family members of victims, and say the commission had full access," he said. "This investigation is now compromised . . . This is `The Gong Show'; this isn't protection of national security."

    btw, these aren't opinions, these are actual news reports. to ignore them shows a willingness to justify american government actions no matter what they are.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

  7. #247
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    senator max cleland on the 9/11 commission (of which he's a former member), "I as a member of the commission cannot look any American in the eye, especially family members of victims, and say the commission had full access," he said. "This investigation is now compromised . . . This is `The Gong Show'; this isn't protection of national security."

    btw, these aren't opinions, these are actual news reports. to ignore them shows a willingness to justify american government actions no matter what they are.
    Yes, I elect to buy the entire 9/11 Commission report that is public knowledge, not one or two other opinions. Why we are reliving the Iraq War today is a waste of time. What is going on in Egypt today mirrors in some ways what happened in Iran in the late 70's according to Marc Ginsberg, Carter's Middle East Advisor and Clinton's Ambassador to Morocco. He supported the Carter actions then but now says they were wrong and we should have supported the Shah. The vacuum left by the fall of the Shaw led to the Islamic fundamentalist takeover of the country and will do the same thing in Egypt now according to Ginsberg.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Yes, I elect to buy the entire 9/11 Commission report that is public knowledge, not one or two other opinions. Why we are reliving the Iraq War today is a waste of time. What is going on in Egypt today mirrors in some ways what happened in Iran in the late 70's according to Marc Ginsberg, Carter's Middle East Advisor and Clinton's Ambassador to Morocco. He supported the Carter actions then but now says they were wrong and we should have supported the Shah. The vacuum left by the fall of the Shaw led to the Islamic fundamentalist takeover of the country and will do the same thing in Egypt now according to Ginsberg.
    incredible amounts of revisionism going on here. we did support the shah! why do you think they captured our embassy took our people hostage? it's not because they're a bunch of evildoers that hate liberty and want to burn the earth. they wanted the US puppet out. if you want them to take out ahmadinejad out the first thing you do is have the US government say that we support him and offer him a bunch of military aid...
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    any king, shah, dictator that's in charge in north africa or the middle east was put there by the US/UK after WW2. any of them that don't have a religious title. think about what a monarchy is, it's reign by bloodline. you think the king of jordan, or the house of saud were kings during brittish occupation? or during the ottoman rule? no, we put them there so they'll do business with us.

    this is the prime difference between the iranian election revolt and this egyption one, the iranians weren't revolting against a puppet of a foreign power.
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

  10. #250
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyroh View Post
    incredible amounts of revisionism going on here. we did support the shah! why do you think they captured our embassy took our people hostage? it's not because they're a bunch of evildoers that hate liberty and want to burn the earth. they wanted the US puppet out. if you want them to take out ahmadinejad out the first thing you do is have the US government say that we support him and offer him a bunch of military aid...
    No, we supported the Shah until he was overthrown and then we didn't help him remain in power leaving a vacuum which helped radicals take over. You really are naive and always thrust your own beliefs and ideology on others. The people of Iran sought a better life and got radical Islam instead.

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