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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The left hijack's terms all the time. What's so surprising about them doing it to this term?


    j-mac
    They hijack the issues as well.

    It was the Democrats who vehemently and violently opposed civil rights but after the Civil Rights Bill was actually passed they quickly changed the dialog in order to claim it was they who were always supportive of Civil Rights. And people bought it.

    It seems the Republicans rely too much on people's intelligence whereas the Democrats, and indeed Leftists everywhere, have no serious problem with historical revision. They support it for what they think will ultimately be for the greater good but are often unclear on what this greater good might be.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It was the Democrats who vehemently and violently opposed civil rights but after the Civil Rights Bill was actually passed they quickly changed the dialog in order to claim it was they who were always supportive of Civil Rights. And people bought it.
    Fair enough, but don't forget that the Southern Democrats defected over to the Republicans at that time and the Republicans gained their southern conservative base, along with all the racist bull**** too.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Do you not think that if the US government had thrown its support behind Mubarak, ensuring continued support even if the protestors were put down through high levels of violence (and death) that the Mubarak regime would not have tried this.
    I believe what most believe, which is that "stability" was the name of the game. If Mubarak implimented fail safes to ensure proper democracy without disrupting stability, the U.S. government would not have stopped him. As it were, he was the government and we did business with the government. We did notinstall Nasser. We did not install Sadat. Andwedid not install Mubarak. Implying that these men were our puppets only encourages the masses inthe Middle East to hate and murder in the name of an exaggerated lie.

    But the Cold War ended in 1989. Nothing prevented the Egyptians from protesting and turning over Mubarak in 1995 in 18 days, but the will of Egyptian people. Thery only found the will in 2011, after the witnessed the dramatic social changes in the region around them. And did we stop them? Or roll our tanks through Cairo? Did the pro American Egyptian military crack down on the people? No. And it is for these reasons one can stepback and declare that status quo of blaming the U.S. for their own culture is exaggerated. And for educated people in the West to preserve that exaggeration is treacherous and dangerous.

    Once again, I bring up Jordan. We deliver aid to this country's government as well. King Abdul II has been trying to give more and more power to the people and they have refused. No American aid is preventing anything. The regional habit to blame the West, especially America, 60 years after the "era of independence," is tired and rediculous.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    The greatest threat to this democratic movement in Egypt would have been the US government providing ongoing support to Mubarak, rather then the stated removal of it.
    "Would have been?" But it did not. And it would not have in the 1990s. The only ones that don't seem to get that the Cold War is over is the Middle East and anti-Americans who need their scapegoat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post

    As for why it occurred now, it was in no way due to Iraq.
    Shall I prove otherwise? This bit of denial is a personal fallacy. You and plenty of others seemtothink that nothing happened between Iraq's vote and Tunisia. The logic of this is foolish and very disrespectful. Review my next post for proof....
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-13-11 at 02:56 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    PART 1 of 2

    For Tamarlain and all others who refuse to be humble after the fact. Here is clear evidence that Arabs voting for the laws that would govern them for the first time in history in Iraq was key to what you see on your electronic box of "wisdom" today....

    Let's start at the beginning. August 2003 - An Iranian Activist…
    Mohsen Sazgara is an Iranian activist and researcher who in August 2003 received a three-month jail sentence for criticizing the regime. Speaking from London, where he is currently receiving medical treatment, he told RFE/RL that he is watching events in Iraq carefully.

    "I personally hope that Iraq's [transition to democracy] will be completed successfully so that it can also help our nation," he says. "For sure, neighbors with democratic governments are much better for us than dictators such as Saddam Hussein or backward groups such as the Taliban."

    Sazgara -- who faces an additional year in jail when he returns home -- says the recent events in Iraq have the power to encourage many young Iranians to push even harder for democratic change in their country.

    "Our young generation in particular has shown -- especially over the past eight years and during the reform movement -- that it has a strong desire for democracy, human rights and civil society, and a strong desire to join the international [community]," Sazgara says. "And when democratic changes take place in our neighboring and brother country Iraq, with its many ties to us, it encourages our youth, and emboldens our young people to ask for change in our current constitution."
    Iran: Analysts Say Democratic Changes In Iraq May Inspire Similar Trends In Its Neighbor - Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty © 2011

    Do you really think that this Iranian activist was all alone with his vision and hopes? That he alone had wider vision and the rest of the Iranians were unable to see across the border? Or the rest of the region for that matter? To suggest so is racist and sophomoric.

    This is what President Bush stated in November 2003....

    "Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? Are millions of men and women and children condemned by history or culture to live in despotism? Are they alone never to know freedom and never even to have a choice in the matter?" Egypt protests show George W. Bush was right about freedom in the Arab world
    He also stated…

    Promoting democracy abroad is, to be sure, a long-standing goal of American foreign policy and is closely intertwined with the American understanding of its global role. Since 2003, however, U.S. President George W. Bush has placed a new emphasis on it, with special regard to the Middle East. In a speech at the twentieth anniversary of the National Endowment for Democracy on November 6, 2003, George W. Bush declared that the Western approach to the Middle East has failed: "Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe - because in the long run, stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty." AICGS: ANALYSES : Democracy Promotion in the Middle East and North Africa: Recent Experiences and Further Prospects, By Dr. Ulrich Speck
    Condoleeza Rice went on later to state….

    In fact, when Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice spoke at the American University in Cairo in June, she announced to some surprise that “for sixty years” the United States had been mistaken in “pursuing stability at the expense of democracy” in the Middle East. http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/...tore.Egypt.pdf

    While WMD is what near sighted people chose to solely focus on as the White House and your precious media overly used it to “legitimize” toppling Hussein’s regime, Osama Bin Laden specifically used the UN’s decade long starvation operation in Iraq for 9/11. One could easily argue that by not promoting democracy and supporting the dictator, we welcomed the inevitable 9/11. I can argue it because I'm smart. I can also use my smarts to see what I consider obvious as hell.

    “But the 9/11 terrorists weren’t Iraqi, they were Saudi” the simpleton may state in an attempt to deny what he secretly realizes. Well, during the Cold War, analysts used “Roll Back” as a strategy to defeat Soviet communism. It was an effort to roll back the effects of communism without having to attack Moscow. It didn’t work very well, but I submit that such a tactic is far better suited to the concentrated ideology of the Middle Eastern civilization. Perhaps by combating Islamic radicalism on the fringes via freedom and democracy we can avoid attacking Mecca and screwing up oil deals while encouraging more radical responses.

    This occurred in 2005 in Saudi Arabia…

    Saudi Arabia began its tentative experiment in democracy Thursday as thousands of men filed into schools, government offices and streetside tents to cast what for many were the first votes of their lives. Saudi Men Cast Ballots in First Election Since '63 (washingtonpost.com)
    And….

    It is not exactly a democratic revolution - the election is for only half the members of municipal councils and women may not vote. Still, Saudi Arabia embarks on its first nationwide elections on Thursday and the exercise may end up being more than symbolic. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/10/in...t/10saudi.html
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-13-11 at 03:33 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Are you needing history to be recent or all encompassing? You see, it was Islam's Arab armies that exploded out of the peninsula. With the first caliphate, Islam's army found itself at war with the Persian and the Byzantine (Christian) Empires. It was Arabs that first colonized and occupied Christian lands and forced their culture upon others as as far east as Afghanistan, as north as the Balkans, and across northern Africa and into Spain. And the Crusades? Weren't Christian armies merely seeking to regain lost land? And did not Islam's Ottoman army conquer and occupy most of Europe for a thousand years after? And when Europe finally fought back, were they not just recapturing lost land. We tend to label this era "Western Imperialism," but the title is very self flaggelating and pathetic. It's at this point that we like to produce European colonialism as if these local tribes weren't already confused about religion, local identity, and independence.

    The fact is that Allah has caused plenty of damage and his armies have occupied far more vast territory as an empire than any of God's armies. But.......if you need history to start with "Western Imperialism" or even the year 1991 when an occupying Muslim military had to get kicked out of Kuwait by the dastardly Christian Army, then you may go ahead and pretend that the West, especially America, is the scourge of the earth.

    Foolish.
    No, I am referring to the modern day US military occupations around the world. I see no such military occupations by the Arab states.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    PART 2 of 2


    In 2007 and 2008, Syrian activists were jailed in Syria. They certainly weren’t the first since 2003….

    Twelve pro-democracy activists, currently on trial in Syria, face up to 15 years in prison for calling for democratic reform and respect for human rights. Pro-democracy activists in Syria face 15 years in prison | Amnesty International
    ........And THEN Tunisia happened. ......and then Egypt happened… None of this happened before the status quo in the heartland of the Sunni tribe was shattered. Saddam Hussein and the absence of true democracy was the status quo.

    Egyptian protestors today speak of America’s mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. While you may wish to separate these, focusing on the details of what took us to each, others see the dramatic shift in the region that both brought.

    "The U.S. went to Iraq and Afghanistan because they said they wanted to bring democracy, but their policies are unfair. If America keeps backing this regime and not the revolution, the people in Egypt will be very angry." Egypt and the U.S.: Anti-American sentiment gradually surfaces in Egypt - latimes.com
    And…

    But Bush’s argument that Middle Eastern democracy could help drain the ideological swamp in which al Qaeda grew may yet be proved true. Osama bin Laden has never looked more irrelevant than he does this week, as tens of thousands march across the Middle East not for jihad, but for democracy, electricity, and a decent job. Middle Eastern Democracy vs American Control - The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan
    .....and then Yemen. …and Jordan. …and Lebanon. …and?

    If Egyptian protestors have Iraq and Afghanistan in ther minds, who the hell are you anti-American (Leftists especially) in the West to deny America its credit for post Cold War vision that you completely lacked (and still do)? Now we are to pretend that even Egyptians don't know their region's changes since Iraq?

    Ralph Peters wrote in 2003 that regime change in Iraq would change the world. I not only argue that it has changed and is changing the region, but China’s concerns offers evidence that the world is being affected…

    In another era, China’s leaders might have been content to let discussion of the protests in Egypt float around among private citizens, then fizzle out.
    But challenges in recent years to authoritarian governments around the globe and violent uprisings in parts of China itself have made Chinese officials increasingly wary of leaving such talk unchecked, especially on the Internet, the medium some officials see as central to fanning the flames of unrest.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/01/wo...jing.html?_r=1

    Bush haters were willing to mock him for his vision of the future. His haters refused his words in a haste to pretend that they weren’t closet racists and anti-Arabic in nature. Their anti-American default positions would not allow them to use intelligence and wisdom (if they have any) and thusly served to merely make the path even harder for those of could see truth. For those of us who have sweated and bled for this vision, you did nothing to assist. To us, you were as an enemy to us as the ignorant Arab with an AK...

    A few days ago, I was finishing up my reading of the book The Greatest Story Ever Sold, written by Bush-hating New York Times writer Frank Rich (Penguin Press, 2006). In the Epilogue, Rich writes two scenarios how Bush's Iraq war may end. He went with the second, the negative one, but here is what he wrote for the first, to describe how things would be if Bush's Middle East plans worked out:
    "Perhaps future generations will discover that George W. Bush was a visionary that worked a miracle - that by knocking out one thug in the Middle East he set off a domino effect that led to the democratic reform in a region gripped by totalitarianism, tribal hatreds, and radical fundamentalism. If so, he will be among the luckiest players in the history book, and history tells us that sometimes it does pay to be luckier than smart."
    American Thinker Blog: George W. Bush: Visionary or just lucky?
    Do you still think the Middle East has had a television blackout towards their neighbors over the years? That they don’t see what is going on within their own civilization? You don’t think they paid attention to Iraq in 2005 as Iraqi Arabs did something historic? ….

    The world watches as Iraq becomes a litmus test of democratic success

    This caricature depicts the way people in many Arab states, from Algeria to Yemen and passing by Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Syria and Iraq, have learnt about their new constitutions over the past six decades of military rule. So it was a novelty to witness Iraqis struggling in public to write a democratic constitution based on wideranging consultation and compromise.

    The world watches as Iraq becomes a litmus test of democratic success | Amir Taheri - Times Online
    …And they were paying attention again in 2010….

    Despite the backstage American role, the face of security Sunday was decidedly Iraqi — unlike during the last parliamentary vote in 2005 — with no American patrols visible on the streets, and Iraqi forces manning checkpoints across the country.
    This time, Sunnis voted, mainly for the bloc headed by Allawi, a secular Shiite, according to interviews with voters in several cities.
    "I had rejected elections on principle since 2003, but a few days ago I decided to participate," said Samir Qaddouri al Jumeili, 34, a health worker and Allawi supporter from majority Sunni Anbar province. He said he expected to find plenty of room for fraud, but was "pleasantly surprised" by the relatively transparent process.
    Iraq election: Purple fingers, but hard work ahead - CSMonitor.com

    But in case you need further proof that the entire Middle East was paying attention to Iraq’s democracy in 2010……

    Iran, Saudi Arabia and other neighbours are keeping a watchful eye on this weekend's parliamentary elections in Iraq – calculating what the outcome is likely to mean for them and the region as a whole.Arab media coverage of the campaign has been intense, with daily special reports on satellite channel al-Jazeera and its Saudi-owned rival, al-Arabiyya.

    It is widely assumed that the Saudis, who helped pay insurgent groups in the past, are again discreetly bankrolling their Sunni friends.

    Syria is also following events intently.

    Turkey, worried about its own restive Kurds, is unhappy with the near-independence of Iraq's Kurds — the biggest winner of the post-Saddam era — but generally takes a pragmatic view while prospects for stability look reasonable.

    ...this landmark Iraqi election is forcing everyone to look ahead, not back.
    Neighbours watch Iraq elections for how the outcome affects them | World news | guardian.co.uk
    And for those of you who absolutely needed to see Iraq fail just to satisfy your shallow, visionless, and moronic protests.....
    Iraq breaks record for time taken to form a government…
    Political parties in Iraq have broken the world record for the amount of time taken to form a new government.BBC News - Iraq breaks record for time taken to form a government




    You see, while you may have been focusing on the latest IED in Iraq, I watched Iraqis vote and I read about Saudi Arabia allowing low level elections for the first time in history. While you were looking for Iraq to erupt into civil war, I was watching Iraqis vote again and read about the Lebanese struggle to crackdown on Hezbollah. While you were looking for failure at every turn in Iraq, I watched other Arab nations appoint ambassadors into Iraq. I watched the modernist voices in Egypt gain strength and unity against Mubarak. I watched Iranians demand fair elections after knowing they were cheated. …..AND then Tunisia had enough of their own government. Tunisia….a country sitting on the fringe of the Arab world. Are you really forcing yourself to believe that Iraq, the very center of the Arab world, escaped their attention over the years? That no one in the Middle East was watching Iraq's progress? Tunisia merely sparked the exponentially growing mood that had already been going on since America’s intervention into Iraq. For those of you who protested Iraqi freedom at all cost……**** you...and thanks for "Supporting the Troop." For those of who you who were above the anti-American rhetoric and political hate mongering thank you for actually "Supporting the Troop." In the end, less of my kind have to bleed as this vision comes true.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I believe what most believe, which is that "stability" was the name of the game. If Mubarak implimented fail safes to ensure proper democracy without disrupting stability, the U.S. government would not have stopped him. As it were, he was the government and we did business with the government. We did notinstall Nasser. We did not install Sadat. Andwedid not install Mubarak. Implying that these men were our puppets only encourages the masses inthe Middle East to hate and murder in the name of an exaggerated lie.

    I did not state the US installed Sadat or Mubarak, just that the US was allied with them, and has provided direct support to the regime which helped keep them in power. The US liked them because they protected US interests in the region, which a democratic government might not. Even now we saw many in the US government call for continued support of Mubarak to protect US interests.
    But the Cold War ended in 1989. Nothing prevented the Egyptians from protesting and turning over Mubarak in 1995 in 18 days, but the will of Egyptian people. Thery only found the will in 2011, after the witnessed the dramatic social changes in the region around them. And did we stop them? Or roll our tanks through Cairo? Did the pro American Egyptian military crack down on the people? No. And it is for these reasons one can stepback and declare that status quo of blaming the U.S. for their own culture is exaggerated. And for educated people in the West to preserve that exaggeration is treacherous and dangerous.
    What changed? Primarily economic conditions in Egypt from the looks of it. Rising discontent with high food prices. The fact the egyptian military did not support the Mubarak regime this time, which it might have done in the 90s. Just as the Algerian military took part in a massive crack down on the Algerian people after a rather free democratic vote in the early 90s. I expect the Egyptian people saw that and felt the Egyptian military might do the same

    Once again, I bring up Jordan. We deliver aid to this country's government as well. King Abdul II has been trying to give more and more power to the people and they have refused. No American aid is preventing anything. The regional habit to blame the West, especially America, 60 years after the "era of independence," is tired and rediculous.
    Direct american aid assists many of the dictatorships to remain in power, rightists in the US, leftists in the US, and most rational people understand this. Would all fall without direct US assistance, of course not, some would though. So yes American assistance is preventing some arabic countries from becoming democratic or at least the attempt at it
    "Would have been?" But it did not. And it would not have in the 1990s. The only ones that don't seem to get that the Cold War is over is the Middle East and anti-Americans who need their scapegoat.
    Who said anything about the cold war? The US has supported dictatorships before during and after the cold war. So have other countries mind you. The US has continued to support many arabic dictatorships after the cold war.

    Shall I prove otherwise? This bit of denial is a personal fallacy. You and plenty of others seemtothink that nothing happened between Iraq's vote and Tunisia. The logic of this is foolish and very disrespectful. Review my next post for proof....

    Do not egyptians read, do they not have access to international news? Could they and the Tunisians have gotten their inspiration from the Rose revolution, the orange revolution or the Tulip revolution. All of which involved peacefull protests leading to the fall of dictatorships. Rather then the US invasion of Iraq. Or do you feel Arabic people can only find inspiration from other arabs. Could they not see the sucess that Turkey is enjoying and seek to follow Turkish democracy?

    Just to note the US (and George Soros) played large roles in the Rose, and Orange revolutions (and probably the Tulip one as well)
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Spain, France, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia, Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Serbia, Romania, Hungary, Albania, Slovenia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, Yemen, Somalia, Oman, Kuwait, Syria, Jordon, Israel, India, Gerogia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Turkmenistan, Azerbijan, Usbekistan, England, Canada, The United States have all come under atttack/been occupied by force by militant Muslim forces.

    This is Islam's history. Know, love it, live it.

    There is a Muslim military occupation in all those countries? Really?
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, I am referring to the modern day US military occupations around the world. I see no such military occupations by the Arab states.
    ....and? Arabs don't have to occupy. Their status quo is to breed the religious terrorism that encourages other nations to have to protect themselves. Were it not for 9/11 there would be no occupation in Afghanistan and Iraq. Were there no Iraqi invasion into Kuwait, there would be no occupation of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. But in the end, all of these governments welcome us to certain extents. We have left Iraq. We will leave Afghanistan.

    Your refernce inplies that the Gulf War and 9/11 didn't happen. That America simply decided over night to send its evil military out to slaughter people for the hell of it. That the Nazi Party and so many others have given way to the evil American Empire and the White House Darth Vader. You continual need for America to be the scourge of the earth just doesn't pan out.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Do not egyptians read, do they not have access to international news? Could they and the Tunisians have gotten their inspiration from the Rose revolution, the orange revolution or the Tulip revolution. All of which involved peacefull protests leading to the fall of dictatorships. Rather then the US invasion of Iraq. Or do you feel Arabic people can only find inspiration from other arabs. Could they not see the sucess that Turkey is enjoying and seek to follow Turkish democracy?

    Just to note the US (and George Soros) played large roles in the Rose, and Orange revolutions (and probably the Tulip one as well)
    What an absolute joke. To cling to your sophomoric protests and utter lack of vision, you prefer to pretend that the greatest disruption in Arab status quo in the heartland of the Sunni tribe had nothing to do with it. Or that long ago revolutions in Turkey have sparked off Tunisia when they have Iraq's recent historical events happening directly within their same region? You actually prefer to use revolutions as far away as possible from this civilization, which shares the very unifying religion of Islam and social oppression, to be what has inspired the greatest regional cry for democracy in history? Why don't we use the American Revolution while we are at this game of Iraq denial.

    Just stop.

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