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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    A Neoconservative perspective on this. You will find there are differences of opinion on this one. Charles Krauthammer , whom William Kristol cites, is of a different mind, as are a number of others.
    Thanks for clarifying that Neoconservatives do not have a one size fits all opinion regarding foreign policy, Fiddytree. My bad. I read Krauthammer's article with interest where he called for military takeover a week ahead of time. He's wicked smart, smarter than Kristol I have always thought. You mention other Neoconservative opinions...could you provide me with any links to their writings in recent days?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    another from of dictatorship
    One that's been in existance for 4 generations, long before the United States came on the international scene.

    Lets see Tunisians are generally fairly well educated and can read. So how about South Korea in 1987, Eastern Europe in the 90's, Georgia a few years ago, the Ukraine, south america in the late 80s and early 90s. Lots of potential inspirations for democratic revolutions dont you think. I am sure the Tunisians are not so narrow minded as to only think that if something only happened to other Arabic people can it happen to them.
    And, they've been reading all about how the Iraqis are expereiencing freedom and democracy.



    Except of course when said democratic governments dont support the strategic interests of the other country. IE Iran in the 1950s, Indonesia, Chile in 1973 and plenty of others.
    So, the better idea would have been to allow the Soviets to controll the dictatorship in Iran?

    Your logic is flawed, at best. You can't just blame the U.S. You have to throw Canada, France, England, Sweden and Germany into the mix, as well. Because what's good for the United States, is good for all those countries, too and they've had their hands in the post just as much as the United States.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    This line of thinking is rather biased.

    It assumes Arabs are stupid, poorly informed and incabable of critical thinking

    It also ignores much of the history of the region over the last 50 years. Democracy in the ME has been denied arabs through dictators who for the last 30 years have been directly supported by the US in most cases. Roughly 3 arabic countries have dictators who do not receive support from the US as a means to remain in power. Algeria in the 90's had a general election in which an islamist party won the majority of seats, after which the military took power and with assistance of the US has brutally repressed the Algerian people.

    I am certain that Egypt could have had a democratic revolution in the 90s or in the 2000s without the invasion of Iraq. Removals of US assistance in supporting the Mubarak regime, and supporting democratic movements within Egypt would have accomplished the same goal years ago. No invasion of Iraq needed.

    Overall the US has done more to repress democracy in the ME (and muslim countries in general) then it has to promote it. Iraq has nothing to due with it, and the only reason Mubarak is gone now in Egypt is because the US government finally decided it was time for him to go. Had the Obama admin thrown its support behind Mubarak as all US governments have since the 80s' this democratic movement would have been crushed through brutal oppression. Quite a few other Arabic countries could have the same situation occur if the US decided not to support the regime. Others would not fall with or without US support (Algeria for one, its resources will allow operation of the governemn without US assistance).

    In other words democracy could have occured in the ME without the bloodshed of Iraq, had the US stopped supporting the un democratic countries of the region.
    First of all, I thank MSgt for pointing out that our doing business with ME governments does not equate to supporting their form of government, so let's not blame America for causing this situation Sunni Arabs find themselves in. However, I would agree that we have not pressed for reforms until Bush (until 2006 anyways ) due to our FP being focused on stability.

    Turns out stability is a fragile thing in an autocracy. All the autocracies have done is promote the rise of religious radicalism. The only example of an option to autocracy has been theocracy, in the ME.

    We provided a demonstration of an alternative to theocracy in the ME. Events in Iraq did inspire Arabs with the possibility of real democracy. That is not bias. The reason so many jumped on the bandwagon in Egypt, in spite of the predictable response by the security forces, is that they have inspiration from Iraq's democracy.

    It assumes the exact opposite than that Arabs are stupid, poorly informed and incapable of critical thinking. The whole Arab world watched Iraqis "purple finger" revolution courtesy of Al-Jazeera. Arabs are smart enough to see the alternative to theocracy and the way out of their oppression. This is why so many people rose to the occasion over the past 4 weeks from all walks of life. Power to the people.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Your logic is flawed, at best. You can't just blame the U.S. You have to throw Canada, France, England, Sweden and Germany into the mix, as well. Because what's good for the United States, is good for all those countries, too and they've had their hands in the post just as much as the United States.
    Well, I don't know about Canada, Sweden or Germany, but you left out Turkey.

    England, France and Turkey originally as the Ottoman Empire, is what created this cluster**** of countries and mixed identities and strongman rule as a result as the default political model.

    Glad to see we are on the same side on this issue, apdst!!!

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Thanks for clarifying that Neoconservatives do not have a one size fits all opinion regarding foreign policy, Fiddytree. My bad. I read Krauthammer's article with interest where he called for military takeover a week ahead of time. He's wicked smart, smarter than Kristol I have always thought. You mention other Neoconservative opinions...could you provide me with any links to their writings in recent days?
    Regardless of whether or not the labels particularly apply (this is always a difficulty), you will find John Bolton and Frank Gaffney Jr. have also promoted more hesitant views.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    First of all, I thank MSgt for pointing out that our doing business with ME governments does not equate to supporting their form of government, so let's not blame America for causing this situation Sunni Arabs find themselves in. However, I would agree that we have not pressed for reforms until Bush (until 2006 anyways ) due to our FP being focused on stability.

    Turns out stability is a fragile thing in an autocracy. All the autocracies have done is promote the rise of religious radicalism. The only example of an option to autocracy has been theocracy, in the ME.

    We provided a demonstration of an alternative to theocracy in the ME. Events in Iraq did inspire Arabs with the possibility of real democracy. That is not bias. The reason so many jumped on the bandwagon in Egypt, in spite of the predictable response by the security forces, is that they have inspiration from Iraq's democracy.

    It assumes the exact opposite than that Arabs are stupid, poorly informed and incapable of critical thinking. The whole Arab world watched Iraqis "purple finger" revolution courtesy of Al-Jazeera. Arabs are smart enough to see the alternative to theocracy and the way out of their oppression. This is why so many people rose to the occasion over the past 4 weeks from all walks of life. Power to the people.
    Egyptians came to the streets after what they saw occur in Tunisia, not after what they say in Iraq. In Tunisia they saw the people of that country protest, leading to the removal of a dictator, not a foreign country invade, leading to death destruction and mass chaos. In Tunisia they saw the dictator flee flee from a popular uprising that started from quite literally a spark. Iraq had little to due with it. In fact Iraq most likely scared more people from change then promote it. Consider the chaos of Iraq, the 4 million refugees, the civil war etc

    Doing business with is different admittedly then providing active support for the continuation of the government. The US does not provide direct support to all of the ME dictatorships, but it does do so to quite a few
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Regardless of whether or not the labels particularly apply (this is always a difficulty), you will find John Bolton and Frank Gaffney Jr. have also promoted more hesitant views.
    Thanks. I found:

    John Bolton: Egyptian Democracy May be Bad News

    The Muslim Brotherhood is the enemy

    I am of the view that Iraq's formation of a democracy inspired enough Arabs as an alternative to theocracy and religious fundamentalism, that they will be able to prevail against the MB in fair elections and institution building. The MB could be quite ruthless, I'm sure, but they would be balanced by the Army, who don't savvy no fundamentalism.

    It is a test.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    I am of the mind that I have very little of mind with this. I want to say it was Jonah Goldberg, who though sometimes nasty in polemics is both amusing and at times insightful, said something like, "Everyone overnight has become an Egyptologist. I do not pretend to be, but sometimes these events happen for the better."
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Aside from select Sunni Arabs, the Global Left is the most stubborn and hypocritical group of people in history. Leftists used to be about the worker. Well, they won. They created unions. In other parts of the world, they created the Hammer & Sickle. They will excuse Mao and Stalin and simply state that they perverted Marx. They will excuse the intellectuals of Germany and Iran and simply state that they were taken advantage of by tyrants. You see, the Global Left is made up of dreamers who are willing to destroy everything and anything that provides them their prosperity just to achieve the impossible dream of utopia. They will develop schemes of population control in the hopes that somebody else somewhere else can take the guilt for administering the plan to reality. They will preach on the people's right to basic human rights, but deny any attempt to make it so. They will point and scoff from afar the genocides of Africa, but turn their backs while screaming on the virtues of "soveriegnty" when asked to do something about it. No matter how many genocides or social oppressions their scemes evolve into, they will always deny it and pretend that the plan would have worked in the hands of other men. Hundreds of millions of corpses between Berlin and Cambodia should be enough to force the schemers to acknowledge that imperfect people will never compliment the "perfect" system. Today's Leftist have resorted to merely being the anti-American voice that can't fathom a global event that can't be blamed on the U.S. After all, along history's path.... all their schemes have failed and fallen under the American boot. Bitter?

    We shouldn't kill the dreamers. But we damn sure better kill their dreams.
    You nailed it!

    I have seen one or two Leftists explain how they were wrong but, of course, with excuses.

    Thanks for the post.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Well, I don't know about Canada, Sweden or Germany, but you left out Turkey.

    England, France and Turkey originally as the Ottoman Empire, is what created this cluster**** of countries and mixed identities and strongman rule as a result as the default political model.

    Glad to see we are on the same side on this issue, apdst!!!
    I know about Sweden, France and Germany.

    IRNA: German weapons used to quell anti-Mubarak protests: MP

    Outrage Over Swedish Arms Sales to Saudis | Defense & Security News at DefenseTalk

    France suspends arms sales to Egypt | Defense & Security News at DefenseTalk

    UK refuses to suspend Egypt arms sales | World news | The Guardian

    Canadian Arms trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    They're all in this just as deep as the U.S. To say that the U.S. is souly responsible is a level of ignorance that shouldn't be tolerated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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