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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    And you're trying to deflect my argument. Typical of someone who has no capabalities of posting an intellectually honest response.
    Someone whose concerned about intellectual honesty wouldn't claim that England was part of the Roman Empire and that the Roman Empire fought religious wars in the name of Christianity.

    Not to mention, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the Crusades were launched as a defensive response to Muslim invasions of Europe and The Holy Land.

    Irregardless of what revisionist history you've been listening to, the Muslims were the agressors, not the Christians.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I had the exact same reaction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Here's the Neocon perspective on this. Read carefully William Kristal's words and consider, apdst.
    A Neoconservative perspective on this. You will find there are differences of opinion on this one. Charles Krauthammer , whom William Kristol cites, is of a different mind, as are a number of others.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    This line of thinking is rather biased.

    It assumes Arabs are stupid, poorly informed and incabable of critical thinking

    It also ignores much of the history of the region over the last 50 years. Democracy in the ME has been denied arabs through dictators who for the last 30 years have been directly supported by the US in most cases. Roughly 3 arabic countries have dictators who do not receive support from the US as a means to remain in power. Algeria in the 90's had a general election in which an islamist party won the majority of seats, after which the military took power and with assistance of the US has brutally repressed the Algerian people.

    I am certain that Egypt could have had a democratic revolution in the 90s or in the 2000s without the invasion of Iraq. Removals of US assistance in supporting the Mubarak regime, and supporting democratic movements within Egypt would have accomplished the same goal years ago. No invasion of Iraq needed.

    Overall the US has done more to repress democracy in the ME (and muslim countries in general) then it has to promote it. Iraq has nothing to due with it, and the only reason Mubarak is gone now in Egypt is because the US government finally decided it was time for him to go. Had the Obama admin thrown its support behind Mubarak as all US governments have since the 80s' this democratic movement would have been crushed through brutal oppression. Quite a few other Arabic countries could have the same situation occur if the US decided not to support the regime. Others would not fall with or without US support (Algeria for one, its resources will allow operation of the governemn without US assistance).

    In other words democracy could have occured in the ME without the bloodshed of Iraq, had the US stopped supporting the un democratic countries of the region.
    The United States hasn't given any support to the Ahatollas in Iran.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The United States hasn't given any support to the Ahatollas in Iran.
    What part of "In most Cases" do you not understand?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    It's rarther true and without the anti-American theme that too often accompanies the pundit's denials and rejections.





    Unfortunately, the social history throughout the region tells a different story since Iraqis began to vote. None of these things were going to happen had the status quo in the heartland of Sunni Arab Islam remained the same.

    The played out notion that American support has denied democracy in the Middle East is foolish. Why is it that this notion only seems to be used in regards to the Middle East? Was it America that installed the House of Saud? Or America that installed the Nasser dynasty? We merely conducted business with the governments they produced. We no more supported the absence of democracy in the Middle East than we do the absence of it in China. Our support hasn't changed towards Egypt's government. We supported it in the 90s and we supported it the day the protestors took to the streets. Yet....they didn't take to the streets in the 90s, did they? What's different? And if they easily ridded themselves of Mubarak in 18 days of generally peaceful protest, what prevented this in the 90s? Like I stated, the notion that Muslims have been under the oppressive prescription of American government is foolish and simple. If they were, a mere 18 days of peaceful protest would not have accounted for much. We have always been the scapegoat and people outside the Middle East have been too eager to allow them their excuses.

    But let's pretend that you can go ahead and lay all guilt upon America's door step while ignoring Arab culture as the underlying current. Are we allowed to also take credit for democracy in Europe? After all, if America is to assume all the nastiness that governments do unto their own, surely this means that we can take positive credit too. Or does this game work that way?
    Do you not think that if the US government had thrown its support behind Mubarak, ensuring continued support even if the protestors were put down through high levels of violence (and death) that the Mubarak regime would not have tried this. The greatest threat to this democratic movement in Egypt would have been the US government providing ongoing support to Mubarak, rather then the stated removal of it. Is/was the US responsible for democracy never occuring in the ME, certainly not. But it is a major supporter currently of the dictatorship in the region. Some of which would survive with or without US support, others would collapse without it (Mubarak is one, Jordan another).

    As for why it occurred now, it was in no way due to Iraq. But was inspired by events in Tunisia and from all things a street vendor setting himself on fire. In the 90s economic conditions and state programs were enough to placate the general population. Now that inflation is eating away at the economic conditions within a large number of ME countries, the governments do not have the funds to continue to placate the population. Requiring either even more brutal methods of repression or opening up the socio-political sphere to all members of society as a means to satisfy the public at large. In this case the Mubarak regime had the choice between brutal repression or opening up. For brutal repression, the Mubarak government would have sought US governmernt acceptance of it, (requiring US acceptance as Egypt is rather dependant on tourism and trade with the West) as it was not forthcoming, it was not left with much in the way of options other then potentially waiting out the protestors. The protestors won in this case because the US decided not to support the dictator.


    The idea that the US is a promoter of democracy is a false one. Internationally it is a promoter of its self interests. Outside of western/northern europe and Japan. Its self interest has tended to mean it has been a supporter of dictatorships. It has helped to overthrown more democratic regimes then it has actively helped to created. Just look at the current case in Egypt. How many upper level officials were against supporting the protestors against Mubarak because US strategic interests were potentially at risk. In the run up to the Iraq war, Wolfowitz was reported to have said he was dissappointed the Turkish military didnt "change" the position of the government of Turkey regarding allowing the US use turkish territory to invade Iraq. Certainly not a way to support democracy in a country that has had more then a few military coups.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    What part of "In most Cases" do you not understand?
    Just making sure that, "most", wasn't misconstrued.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    This just fuels my pessimism.

    CAIRO - Egypt's military chiefs on Saturday sought to restore calm and stability to a country still exhilarated by the first fruits of its revolution, but the armed forces signaled there were limits to how much change they would tolerate, ignoring demonstrators' demands to dismantle the institutional legacies of former president Hosni Mubarak.

    In its fourth public statement in three days, the Supreme Military Council repeated its promise to oversee a transition to a "democratic and free" Egypt run by civilians. For the time being, however, the generals said they would keep the old order in place, allowing Mubarak's government to stay on in a caretaker role. They also said Egypt would honor its international treaties, including its peace accord with Israel.

    Military pledges to oversee peaceful transition as protesters remain in Tahrir
    That's what Lenin said in 1917.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #1849
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Do you not think that if the US government had thrown its support behind Mubarak, ensuring continued support even if the protestors were put down through high levels of violence (and death) that the Mubarak regime would not have tried this. The greatest threat to this democratic movement in Egypt would have been the US government providing ongoing support to Mubarak, rather then the stated removal of it. Is/was the US responsible for democracy never occuring in the ME, certainly not. But it is a major supporter currently of the dictatorship in the region. Some of which would survive with or without US support, others would collapse without it (Mubarak is one, Jordan another).
    Isn't Jordan a monarchy?

    As for why it occurred now, it was in no way due to Iraq. But was inspired by events in Tunisia and from all things a street vendor setting himself on fire. In the 90s economic conditions and state programs were enough to placate the general population. Now that inflation is eating away at the economic conditions within a large number of ME countries, the governments do not have the funds to continue to placate the population. Requiring either even more brutal methods of repression or opening up the socio-political sphere to all members of society as a means to satisfy the public at large. In this case the Mubarak regime had the choice between brutal repression or opening up. For brutal repression, the Mubarak government would have sought US governmernt acceptance of it, (requiring US acceptance as Egypt is rather dependant on tourism and trade with the West) as it was not forthcoming, it was not left with much in the way of options other then potentially waiting out the protestors. The protestors won in this case because the US decided not to support the dictator.
    Where did the Tunisians get the idea?

    The idea that the US is a promoter of democracy is a false one. Internationally it is a promoter of its self interests. Outside of western/northern europe and Japan. Its self interest has tended to mean it has been a supporter of dictatorships. It has helped to overthrown more democratic regimes then it has actively helped to created. Just look at the current case in Egypt. How many upper level officials were against supporting the protestors against Mubarak because US strategic interests were potentially at risk. In the run up to the Iraq war, Wolfowitz was reported to have said he was dissappointed the Turkish military didnt "change" the position of the government of Turkey regarding allowing the US use turkish territory to invade Iraq. Certainly not a way to support democracy in a country that has had more then a few military coups.
    Creating/promoting peaceful, free democratic governments is everyone's best interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #1850
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Isn't Jordan a monarchy?
    another from of dictatorship


    Where did the Tunisians get the idea?
    Lets see Tunisians are generally fairly well educated and can read. So how about South Korea in 1987, Eastern Europe in the 90's, Georgia a few years ago, the Ukraine, south america in the late 80s and early 90s. Lots of potential inspirations for democratic revolutions dont you think. I am sure the Tunisians are not so narrow minded as to only think that if something only happened to other Arabic people can it happen to them.


    Creating/promoting peaceful, free democratic governments is everyone's best interest.

    Except of course when said democratic governments dont support the strategic interests of the other country. IE Iran in the 1950s, Indonesia, Chile in 1973 and plenty of others.
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