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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    And you still forget that England was once part of the Roman Empire, especially when it expanded the most (the 15th to 16th century).

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    What do you think of what happened and what do you think of my claim that it met its objective and has been significant in spreading the meme of freedom, democracy and liberty across the Middle East?
    Iraq was handled wrong. By using WMD to kick in the door, we allowed "greater" Europe their way to escape their responsibility. There was always two goals. One, was to finally end the decrepit UN containment mission we were trying to get out of since President Clinton and of which Osama Bin Laden used to justify 9/11. And two, ignite change in an Arab region that has been starving for a success.

    But because Rumsfeld denied the military their plan, he facilitated far more blood and treasure than was necessary. He knew that in order to sell the invasion, he had to deny the military's details of the effort and portray the war as cheap and without true effort. That democracy would simply spring up once our troops reached Baghdad. After selling the invasion, he commenced to tie the hands of the professionals who are trained to fight. His non-experienced coven of civilian misfits commenced to tell 30 years soldiers and Marines how to fight. He put his dimwit theory on warfare to the test and called it "Shock and Awe." He envisioned the Gulf War scenario as the future of warfare. He believed that technology would win the wars as the bare minimum of men skipped in and scooped up the surrendering masses. However, the Gulf War was a wargamers wet dream. It is not the future and the nature of warfare never changes.

    With the bare minimum of troops, U.S. Marines fought the entire way to Baghdad. Once in Baghdad, we watched it burn all around us as looters commenced to have a field day. With no further orders out of the White House, Marines and soldiers simply waited. And waited. And waited. When the Marines left Iraq, the Army unts left behind were too little to occupy properly and Iraq devolved into tribal crisis. When the Marines came back later that fall (2003), the Anbar Province was a wreck. For years, pundits and ignorant critics (plenty of politicians) used every IED as proof of failure and any sense of violence between the tribes meant "Civil War." They all maintained their ignorance and claimed that WMD was the reason and that we should "bring our troops home." Well, soldiers and Marines stuck it out and weathered Rumsfeld's bungling until he was fired. There is no coincidence that Iraq began to turn around once General Patreaus was given the power to do his job and a cultural expert named Vali Nasr was consulted.

    Along the way, Arabs voted on the laws that would govern them for the first time history. They freely elected officials not once, but twice. And the last time it was done under the complete security of Iraqi forces alone where there was little violence. ALL the region watched their so called "defenders of Islam" travel to Iraq to slaughter their fellow Muslim. If 9/11 wasn't enough, Al-Queda proved how little respect they have for even Muslim life. The same critics who "wanted the troop home" and needed every IED explosion to validate their lack of vision now wish to pretend that the entire region sees everything that is going on in the world...except in Iraq. That somehow, Iraq has a big black shield that they can't peer into.

    But the truth is that the Middle East has been under going huge social changes since the first televised "purple finger" event in Iraq. Tunisia didn't just come out of no where. And Egypt didn't happen simply because of Tunisia.

    ....and today the pundit looks at Afghanistan and chants "bring them home." Fools.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Oh please. How many wars were fought over Protestants vs Catholics? War of the Spanish Succession. War of the Quadruple Alliance. How many wars did the Roman Empire instigate? Well over two dozen large scale wars (20,000+).

    And you still forget that England was once part of the Roman Empire, especially when it expanded the most (the 15th to 16th century).


    Oh please? Once again you blunder about in your quest to excuse the antagonizer. We aren't discussing internal religious wars between Protestants and Catholics or Sunni and Shia. We were discussing Muslim armies upon the rest versus Christian armies upon the rest. We were discussing religious occupations.



    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    You were acting as if international dislike for America/the West was completely unwarranted. You were trying to use history as a reason why they should not be disliked. I'm sorry if more relevant history completely contradicted what you were going for, but do not blame me for your ignorance of it.


    Um...no...again. We were discussing religious occupation and the difference between a Muslim occupation versus Christian occupation. You jumped in and assumed something else as you went into the "Western Betrayal."
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-12-11 at 04:41 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Yeah, I don't know either. I assumed his quickness to make an argument for a discussion we weren't having assisted him in a simple slip of error. You know...while calling me factually incorrect and ignorant.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-12-11 at 04:44 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Iraq was handled wrong. By using WMD to kick in the door, we allowed "greater" Europe their way to escape their responsibility. There was always two goals. One, was to finally end the decrepit UN containment mission we were trying to get out of since President Clinton and of which Osama Bin Laden used to justify 9/11. And two, ignite change in an Arab region that has been starving for a success.

    But because Rumsfeld denied the military their plan, he facilitated far more blood and treasure than was necessary. He knew that in order to sell the invasion, he had to deny the military's details of the effort and portray the war as cheap and without true effort. That democracy would simply spring up once our troops reached Baghdad. After selling the invasion, he commenced to tie the hands of the professionals who are trained to fight. His non-experienced coven of civilian misfits commenced to tell 30 years soldiers and Marines how to fight. He put his dimwit theory on warfare to the test and called it "Shock and Awe." He envisioned the Gulf War scenario as the future of warfare. He believed that technology would win the wars as the bare minimum of men skipped in and scooped up the surrendering masses. However, the Gulf War was a wargamers wet dream. It is not the future and the nature of warfare never changes.

    With the bare minimum of troops, U.S. Marines fought the entire way to Baghdad. Once in Baghdad, we watched it burn all around us as looters commenced to have a field day. With no further orders out of the White House, Marines and soldiers simply waited. And waited. And waited. When the Marines left Iraq, the Army unts left behind were too little to occupy properly and Iraq devolved into tribal crisis. When the Marines came back later that fall (2003), the Anbar Province was a wreck. For years, pundits and ignorant critics (plenty of politicians) used every IED as proof of failure and any sense of violence between the tribes meant "Civil War." They all maintained their ignorance and claimed that WMD was the reason and that we should "bring our troops home." Well, soldiers and Marines stuck it out and weathered Rumsfeld's bungling until he was fired. There is no coincidence that Iraq began to turn around once General Patreaus was given the power to do his job and a cultural expert named Vali Nasr was consulted.

    Along the way, Arabs voted on the laws that would govern them for the first time history. They freely elected officials not once, but twice. And the last time it was done under the complete security of Iraqi forces alone where there was little violence. ALL the region watched their so called "defenders of Islam" travel to Iraq to slaughter their fellow Muslim. If 9/11 wasn't enough, Al-Queda proved how little respect they have for even Muslim life. The same critics who "wanted the troop home" and needed every IED explosion to validate their lack of vision now wish to pretend that the entire region sees everything that is going on in the world...except in Iraq. That somehow, Iraq has a big black shield that they can't peer into.

    But the truth is that the Middle East has been under going huge social changes since the first televised "purple finger" event in Iraq. Tunisia didn't just come out of no where. And Egypt didn't happen simply because of Tunisia.

    ....and today the pundit looks at Afghanistan and chants "bring them home." Fools.
    Thanks very much!

    I worked on JWARS in '99-'00, where my focus was on the global logistics planning, scheduling and execution system from CONUS to QDR East and QDR West theaters, simultaneously. Since cargo by ship takes upwards of 30 days, and given material priorities in theater, quite a bit of juggling needs to occur to get top priority items into port facilities on time, so that the intra-theater logistics system can deliver toilet paper to the troops, in time for the morning ****. You are absolutely correct, QDR East was the wargamers wet dream.

    The big argument I have is that we had enough troops, only the strategy of their deployment was wrong. With only a surge of 50,000 but most importantly a posture change to put everyone inside the population to protect them, broke the civil war. This is my naive observation. It would have been better to stop the looting and initial chaos with more, but the insurgency really didn't really get started for at least 6 months to a year. That's a long time to keep those kinds of numbers deployed and rotated. We really did fight two separate wars there, a crushing 5 week conventional war and a 4 year insurgency. Wrong strategy for the "non-existent" insurgency. Sigh.

    I am still disheartened at the hypocrisy of the Left for discrediting the war as all about WMD. Of course, that's how it was pushed. Dreadful shame that they didn't see the benefit to flushing the Saddam regime and building a democracy. All for political points and to discredit the illegitimate President Bush.

    and now today with Afghanistan.

    So, please answer me this one question, MSgt. What is your opinion about Bremer's dismantling of the Iraqi Army? I think it was absolutely necessary to remove the power structure of the Baathists/Sunnis, and to build an NCO centric force for the new Iraq, and so that the majority Shia could run the country without the possibility of Military Coup.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    So, please answer me this one question, MSgt. What is your opinion about Bremer's dismantling of the Iraqi Army? I think it was absolutely necessary to remove the power structure of the Baathists/Sunnis, and to build an NCO centric force for the new Iraq, and so that the majority Shia could run the country without the possibility of Military Coup.
    If you will allow me a follow up question to tie this back into Egypt, do you think there needs to be a transformation of the Egyptian military in any respects for a unencumbered democracy to take shape in Egypt? I suspect there are many in positions of privilege and the news that the Egyptian military is so intertwined in many aspects of the economy is concerning.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Fair enough. As MSgt pointed out, the Cold War caused us to make short-term decisions and abandon our principles. However, IMHO, the fall of Communism alone did not offer the prospect of democracy. The public evolution of the invasion and adoption of democracy by Iraq, was the starter motor for democracy in the ME. It is important that though invaded, this was done by the Iraqis, with our assistance, but it was the Iraqis who constructed the constitution, ratified it by popular vote, elected their permanent government, and exercised their freedom of speech and assembly, something not allowed in other parts of the ME. Iraq gave the ME the democracy option and inspiration. "Why not here" they ask?
    This line of thinking is rather biased.

    It assumes Arabs are stupid, poorly informed and incabable of critical thinking

    It also ignores much of the history of the region over the last 50 years. Democracy in the ME has been denied arabs through dictators who for the last 30 years have been directly supported by the US in most cases. Roughly 3 arabic countries have dictators who do not receive support from the US as a means to remain in power. Algeria in the 90's had a general election in which an islamist party won the majority of seats, after which the military took power and with assistance of the US has brutally repressed the Algerian people.

    I am certain that Egypt could have had a democratic revolution in the 90s or in the 2000s without the invasion of Iraq. Removals of US assistance in supporting the Mubarak regime, and supporting democratic movements within Egypt would have accomplished the same goal years ago. No invasion of Iraq needed.

    Overall the US has done more to repress democracy in the ME (and muslim countries in general) then it has to promote it. Iraq has nothing to due with it, and the only reason Mubarak is gone now in Egypt is because the US government finally decided it was time for him to go. Had the Obama admin thrown its support behind Mubarak as all US governments have since the 80s' this democratic movement would have been crushed through brutal oppression. Quite a few other Arabic countries could have the same situation occur if the US decided not to support the regime. Others would not fall with or without US support (Algeria for one, its resources will allow operation of the governemn without US assistance).

    In other words democracy could have occured in the ME without the bloodshed of Iraq, had the US stopped supporting the un democratic countries of the region.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The big argument I have is that we had enough troops, only the strategy of their deployment was wrong. With only a surge of 50,000 but most importantly a posture change to put everyone inside the population to protect them, broke the civil war. This is my naive observation. It would have been better to stop the looting and initial chaos with more, but the insurgency really didn't really get started for at least 6 months to a year. That's a long time to keep those kinds of numbers deployed and rotated. We really did fight two separate wars there, a crushing 5 week conventional war and a 4 year insurgency. Wrong strategy for the "non-existent" insurgency. Sigh.
    All the more reason to do it with the correct amount troops. We should never conduct a war with just enough troops, which was just enough to fight towards Baghdad while avoiding the greater part of the cities. The point of an invasion is to occupy. We did not invade with an occupation force. We should have rolled into Baghdad with our troops saturating the country. As it were, most of Iraq didn't even see an American presence as we declared victory. In order to defeat an enemy, he has to feel defeated. The Germans felt defeated. The Japanese felt defeated. Most of Iraq would take years to feel defeated. In the mean time, we sent in contractors and paid them an enormous amount of money to do a job we should have enlisted Iraqis for. This would have gotten young people off the streets away from insurgent activities. Unfortunately, young people weren't properly employed to help build their own country back up and they fell prey to the Al-Queda agents who managed to enlist enough of them into the slaughter.

    Of course, there is the probability that their little "civil war" had to happen so that they could get past their immediate bad blood.


    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    So, please answer me this one question, MSgt. What is your opinion about Bremer's dismantling of the Iraqi Army? I think it was absolutely necessary to remove the power structure of the Baathists/Sunnis, and to build an NCO centric force for the new Iraq, and so that the majority Shia could run the country without the possibility of Military Coup.
    You are correct. It was necessary. We had to consider that many of them merely avoided the fight and could re-organize later. We also had to consider that even within the Sunni territories that the local military powers were abusive. We simply could not insist on a free Iraq and expect them to simply forget the military commander who killed their family members and who maintains his position over their village. We had to tear down and restructure.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    This line of thinking is rather biased.
    It's rarther true and without the anti-American theme that too often accompanies the pundit's denials and rejections.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    No invasion of Iraq needed.

    Unfortunately, the social history throughout the region tells a different story since Iraqis began to vote. None of these things were going to happen had the status quo in the heartland of Sunni Arab Islam remained the same.

    The played out notion that American support has denied democracy in the Middle East is foolish. Why is it that this notion only seems to be used in regards to the Middle East? Was it America that installed the House of Saud? Or America that installed the Nasser dynasty? We merely conducted business with the governments they produced. Stability was the Cold War theme, but nothing stopped these Arab leaders from prescribing greater freedom and democracy on their own. We are friends with King Abdul II in Jordan also. he has been trying to create a democratic theme in his country for years and years. Are wesome how denying this for them?

    We no more supported the absence of democracy in the Middle East than we do the absence of it in China. Our support hasn't changed towards Egypt's government. We supported it in the 90s and we supported it the day the protestors took to the streets. Yet....they didn't take to the streets in the 90s, did they? What's different? And if they easily ridded themselves of Mubarak in 18 days of generally peaceful protest, what prevented this in the 90s? Like I stated, the notion that Muslims have been under the oppressive prescription of American government is foolish and simple. If they were, a mere 18 days of peaceful protest would not have accounted for much. We have always been the scapegoat and people outside the Middle East have been too eager to allow them their excuses.

    But let's pretend that you can go ahead and lay all guilt upon America's door step while ignoring Arab culture as the underlying current. Are we allowed to also take credit for democracy in Europe? After all, if America is to assume all the nastiness that governments do unto their own as we conduct trades and security deals, surely this means that we can take positive credit too everywhere else. Or does this game not work that way?
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-12-11 at 06:16 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    If you will allow me a follow up question to tie this back into Egypt, do you think there needs to be a transformation of the Egyptian military in any respects for a unencumbered democracy to take shape in Egypt? I suspect there are many in positions of privilege and the news that the Egyptian military is so intertwined in many aspects of the economy is concerning.
    I don't think the Egyptian military has to transform that much. They have to address some of their internal issues and I suspect that they will be re-defined in their new Constitution. But they will maintain their structure and station. They will never support theocracy, because it means that they would lose power and our support.

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