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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #1821
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Richard Nixon said much the same thing shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall and that the vacuum left by the fall of Communism would be filled by radical Islam, and this long before Islam has become an international threat.
    Yeah but back then nobody was willing to look at religion. And throughout the 90s such a thing was absolutely politically incorrect and even forbidden in intel reports (I've read their obvious avoidances). We like to think that religious crisis is only a Christian Middle Age thing. We subscribe to the recent history phenomena, which is that enemies only come from national guidons and uniformed mannerisms. We like to pretend that the white Western inspired self-righteous Geneva Convention laws must pertain to the entire world even though they had nothing to do to with its evolution. And whenthey don't..."how dare they."

    We like to pretend that all issues have simple answers and when they do not, we behave as if they will solve themselves. None in Washington personify this ignorance more than Rumsfeld's "No-Plan" for Iraq in 2003 where democracy was supposed to spring forth on its own once Baghdad fell (he's the same idiot that was afraid of Iraq's tribal instability without Hussein in 1991).

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I doubt any of this would have happened though without the collapse of Communism. That was where it all started as far as the modern era is concerned, and though there will be some difficult patches the trend, over time, does seem to be in one direction.

    One hundred years ago there were only a very few democracies. Change is happening.
    Fair enough. As MSgt pointed out, the Cold War caused us to make short-term decisions and abandon our principles. However, IMHO, the fall of Communism alone did not offer the prospect of democracy. The public evolution of the invasion and adoption of democracy by Iraq, was the starter motor for democracy in the ME. It is important that though invaded, this was done by the Iraqis, with our assistance, but it was the Iraqis who constructed the constitution, ratified it by popular vote, elected their permanent government, and exercised their freedom of speech and assembly, something not allowed in other parts of the ME. Iraq gave the ME the democracy option and inspiration. "Why not here" they ask?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Thanks for that. ...and good Qu'ranic verse.
    MSgt, you should really write an opinion piece for the NYT, laying out your long view and the opportunity that presents itself. Really. Let me know if you do and if it gets published! (I am not a regular reader of that paper)

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Well said. It would be interesting to see how any former Communists, or any Leftists, respond to these points.

    Perhaps some of them have had a "What was I thinking?!?" moment.
    Aside from select Sunni Arabs, the Global Left is the most stubborn and hypocritical group of people in history. Leftists used to be about the worker. Well, they won. They created unions. In other parts of the world, they created the Hammer & Sickle. They will excuse Mao and Stalin and simply state that they perverted Marx. They will excuse the intellectuals of Germany and Iran and simply state that they were taken advantage of by tyrants. You see, the Global Left is made up of dreamers who are willing to destroy everything and anything that provides them their prosperity just to achieve the impossible dream of utopia. They will develop schemes of population control in the hopes that somebody else somewhere else can take the guilt for administering the plan to reality. They will preach on the people's right to basic human rights, but deny any attempt to make it so. They will point and scoff from afar the genocides of Africa, but turn their backs while screaming on the virtues of "soveriegnty" when asked to do something about it. No matter how many genocides or social oppressions their scemes evolve into, they will always deny it and pretend that the plan would have worked in the hands of other men. Hundreds of millions of corpses between Berlin and Cambodia should be enough to force the schemers to acknowledge that imperfect people will never compliment the "perfect" system. Today's Leftist have resorted to merely being the anti-American voice that can't fathom a global event that can't be blamed on the U.S. After all, along history's path.... all their schemes have failed and fallen under the American boot. Bitter?

    We shouldn't kill the dreamers. But we damn sure better kill their dreams.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-12-11 at 02:52 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post

    The fact is that Allah has caused plenty of damage and his armies have occupied far more vast territory as an empire than any of God's armies.
    This is nothing short of being factually incorrect. The British Empire has occupied far more vast territory than any other empire in history.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But.......if you need history to start with "Western Imperialism" or even the year 1991 when an occupying Muslim military had to get kicked out of Kuwait by the dastardly Christian Army, then you may go ahead and pretend that the West, especially America, is the scourge of the earth.
    Foolish.
    How about we talk about the Western Betrayal? How millions of people were slaughtered because America and the West did not fulfill their agreements? Queue the apoligia in 3... 2.... 1...

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Yeah but back then nobody was willing to look at religion. And throughout the 90s such a thing was absolutely politically incorrect and even forbidden in intel reports (I've read their obvious avoidances). We like to think that religious crisis is only a Christian Middle Age thing. We subscribe to the recent history phenomena, which is that enemies only come from national guidons and uniformed mannerisms. We like to pretend that the white Western inspired self-righteous Geneva Convention laws must pertain to the entire world even though they had nothing to do to with its evolution. And whenthey don't..."how dare they."

    We like to pretend that all issues have simple answers and when they do not, we behave as if they will solve themselves. None in Washington personify this ignorance more than Rumsfeld's "No-Plan" for Iraq in 2003 where democracy was supposed to spring forth on its own once Baghdad fell (he's the same idiot that was afraid of Iraq's tribal instability without Hussein in 1991).
    So, MSgt, I have to ask you your opinion on Iraq and the actions and events of the US from 2002 through today. You have probably read my posting being in complete favor with going in (although I think WMD was hyped - I view it as a humanitarian intervention as the proper justification and spreading democracy from Iraq to the ME as the core objective), and that its objective of spreading democracy is taking root. Rumsfeld was an idiot ("there's no insurgency...", no counterinsurgency strategy), I appreciate we had to disband the Army to break Sunni power structure, thank God for counterinsurgency war planning at AEI with Gen. Keane and that Cheney bought it.

    What do you think of what happened and what do you think of my claim that it met its objective and has been significant in spreading the meme of freedom, democracy and liberty across the Middle East?

  7. #1827
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    This is nothing short of being factually incorrect. The British Empire has occupied far more vast territory than any other empire in history.
    Oh, we were discussing Muslim armies versus Christian armies. Not Muslim armies versus British armies. Britsh expansion was not under the Cross simply because Christians were within. The days of Christian Armies are long gone. One would have to go back to the Crusades to see Christians on the march. But the Cresent marches on today, doesn't it? You see the West has grown past the idea that slaughter in the name of God is one's duty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    How about we talk about the Western Betrayal? How millions of people were slaughtered because America and the West did not fulfill their agreements? Queue the apoligia in 3... 2.... 1...
    Which has what to do with a Christian Army? How about we talk about Giraffe feeding habits too?
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-12-11 at 03:51 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Oh, we were discussing Muslim armies versus Christian armies. Not Muslim armies versus British armies. Britsh expansion was not under the Cross simply because Christians were within. The days of Christian Armies are long gone. But the Cresent marches on.
    Oh please. How many wars were fought over Protestants vs Catholics? War of the Spanish Succession. War of the Quadruple Alliance. How many wars did the Roman Empire instigate? Well over two dozen large scale wars (20,000+).

    And you still forget that England was once part of the Roman Empire, especially when it expanded the most (the 15th to 16th century).

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Which has what to do with a Christian Army? How about we talk about Giraffe feeding habits too?
    You were acting as if international dislike for America/the West was completely unwarranted. You were trying to use history as a reason why they should not be disliked. I'm sorry if more relevant history completely contradicted what you were going for, but do not blame me for your ignorance of it.

  9. #1829
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Oh please. How many wars were fought over Protestants vs Catholics? War of the Spanish Succession. War of the Quadruple Alliance. How many wars did the Roman Empire instigate? Well over two dozen large scale wars (20,000+).

    And you still forget that England was once part of the Roman Empire, especially when it expanded the most (the 15th to 16th century).



    You were acting as if international dislike for America/the West was completely unwarranted. You were trying to use history as a reason why they should not be disliked. I'm sorry if more relevant history completely contradicted what you were going for, but do not blame me for your ignorance of it.
    You're trying to tape hair to a dog's butt, now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    You're trying to tape hair to a dog's butt, now.
    And you're trying to deflect my argument. Typical of someone who has no capabalities of posting an intellectually honest response.

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