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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #1811
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    No conservative has said it is a bad thing, and that is not what i am saying, but the near complete cynicism that it can be accomplished (notwithstanding Krauthammer's article) is very disappointing.
    No one is saying that, either. Another complete misinterpretaion of past comments.

    My cynicism isn't about that it can be accomplished as much as it is about that it will be accomplished.

    Very few times in history has a military, once they gaine power, just said, "ok, here ya go", and handed things off to a civilian parliament. To say that there's no way that the Egyptian army won't turn around and **** the Egyptians is naive, at best.

    All I've been getting at throughout this thread and the other threads on this subject, is that I'll get excited, when it's time to get excited. IMO, that time hasn't come, yet.

    If you're put off, because I don't just take the army's word for it, that they're going to get everything organized and then just step back to let an elected government run the show, then I apologize, but history tells me to not to be so certain that that will be the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The truth is that instead of pretending that "our wars are over" in 1989, we should have recognized that the end of the Cold War meant that America was free of having to place our values on the shelf. We should have recognized that Europeans and Americans have a responsibility to deal with the mess that wasa created and facilitated over the last 400-ish years. And we damn well should have recognized that our long term security was never in good hands with the temporary dictator that defied the Soviet Union on our behalf.
    Richard Nixon said much the same thing shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall and that the vacuum left by the fall of Communism would be filled by radical Islam, and this long before Islam has become an international threat.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I must admit that I have become somewhat immune to those usual suspects spouting about alternatives to Democracy. What really, really, really is pissing me off is the cynicism of the conservatives to this blossoming of popular will AND action toward liberty and rights. It is most hypocritical. As much as I agree with conservatives on the fiscal and economic fronts, I have lost major respect for their claims of supposed values.
    You can count me in the group that is optimistic, but also realistic. DO I HOPE that the Egyptians develop a peaceful democracy? OF COURSE I do...and have said so many times. Am I CONCERNED that instead it will become another Iran? Yep...I am. I believe that is the much more likely scenario. But I have ALSO said...Egypt, like IRaq and Afghanistan for that matter, can and should control their own destiny. If they are smart they will reject fundamentalism. If they ignore it as a threat or embrace it...well..then let em burn...thats their choice. As long as they keep it within their borders...cest la vie.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Al Jazeera - Protests and clashes happening in Algeria and Yemen


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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Because these kinds of people (Leftists) still believe in the impractical dream of Marx and the notion that people can be organized "perfectly." Marx' dream will always evolve into the Maos and the Stalins because Communism can never work on such a government level. Nazism (extreme dictatorship) is another failed ideology that assumed to "perfect" people. Islam, as an organizing tool in the 20th century, also failed. While they enjoy their freedom of expression and sense of voice in a democracy, they dismiss the fact that only like minded people will ever create utopia. And when one seeks to make this a reality in our world, they will evolve into the Maos, Stalins, and Hitlers in order to kill off those who are not of the collective. With one of America's great global missions being that of democracy, being the "last man standing" in 1989 while all other systems of governance had been demolished and tossed into history's waste bin, progress and prosperity is absolutely tied to a systemn where people are simply different and accepted.

    Exaggerated self-flaggelation is also a Leftist trait, so seeking every imperfection in democracy will always trump honesty.
    Well said. It would be interesting to see how any former Communists, or any Leftists, respond to these points.

    Perhaps some of them have had a "What was I thinking?!?" moment.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No one is saying that, either. Another complete misinterpretaion of past comments.

    My cynicism isn't about that it can be accomplished as much as it is about that it will be accomplished.

    Very few times in history has a military, once they gaine power, just said, "ok, here ya go", and handed things off to a civilian parliament. To say that there's no way that the Egyptian army won't turn around and **** the Egyptians is naive, at best.

    All I've been getting at throughout this thread and the other threads on this subject, is that I'll get excited, when it's time to get excited. IMO, that time hasn't come, yet.

    If you're put off, because I don't just take the army's word for it, that they're going to get everything organized and then just step back to let an elected government run the show, then I apologize, but history tells me to not to be so certain that that will be the case.
    These are all short-term obstacles and details, quite frankly. The wave of democratization of the Middle East has truly started, now. The government of Egypt was discarded by spontaneous popular protest. A non-violent demonstration, for 18 days, that continually grew in numbers and geographical location throughout Egypt (at least each Tuesday and Friday, while the hard core protesters kept ownership of Tahrir Square during the off days while the people rested up for the next barrage, and maintained possession of the square under coordinated assault by security forces, the NDP party members and other Mubarak supporters). Glorious!

    Egypt was an internally driven revolution. Iraq was invaded. I consider Iraq to be the starter motor for freedom in the ME and now the engine is purring perfectly on its own. It is hardly over now, it has just begun. Tunisia, Algeria, Libya?, EGYPT, Yemen, Jordan, Syria, IRAN?, Saudi Arabia? Dictators are scrambling to appease their citizens now that it is clear to all what is possible.

    Whether is can or will be accomplished, you are cynical in the midst of the greatest transformation of the world since Enlightenment. That is not overstating things, either.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I am not sure I can express my gratitude for being able to read such a grounded exposition, MSgt. You got your **** together and hopefully others can reevaluate the way they see the world on reading your words. Simply, thank you.

    I wrote this to my cynical cousin on Facebook a few minutes ago (and stole a few of your lines, thanks again ):
    Thanks for that. ...and good Qu'ranic verse.

    MSgt
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    These are all short-term obstacles and details, quite frankly. The wave of democratization of the Middle East has truly started, now. The government of Egypt was discarded by spontaneous popular protest. A non-violent demonstration, for 18 days, that continually grew in numbers and geographical location throughout Egypt (at least each Tuesday and Friday, while the hard core protesters kept ownership of Tahrir Square during the off days while the people rested up for the next barrage, and maintained possession of the square under coordinated assault by security forces, the NDP party members and other Mubarak supporters). Glorious!

    Egypt was an internally driven revolution. Iraq was invaded. I consider Iraq to be the starter motor for freedom in the ME and now the engine is purring perfectly on its own. It is hardly over now, it has just begun. Tunisia, Algeria, Libya?, EGYPT, Yemen, Jordan, Syria, IRAN?, Saudi Arabia? Dictators are scrambling to appease their citizens now that it is clear to all what is possible.

    Whether is can or will be accomplished, you are cynical in the midst of the greatest transformation of the world since Enlightenment. That is not overstating things, either.
    I doubt any of this would have happened though without the collapse of Communism. That was where it all started as far as the modern era is concerned, and though there will be some difficult patches the trend, over time, does seem to be in one direction.

    One hundred years ago there were only a very few democracies. Change is happening.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Al Jazeera - Protests and clashes happening in Algeria and Yemen
    Al-Jazeera - Egyptian military conditionally offer dropping the Emergency Rule on Friday. Army guarantees smooth and democratic transition of power. Egypt's Constitutional Council met Saturday to discuss reforms.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Al-Jazeera - Egyptian military conditionally offer dropping the Emergency Rule on Friday. Army guarantees smooth and democratic transition of power. Egypt's Constitutional Council met Saturday to discuss reforms.
    Al-Jazeera - Egyptians say that the current Constitution is invalid and demand a new one.

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