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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I stated this 14 days ago while the commentators (known as "experts") on TV were focusing on whether or not to support the Egyptian people. I also remarked on the true long term security of America being dependent on foriegn democracies while these same "experts" began looking at short term scares like rising oil prices or the Muslim Brotherhood or Iran part II. You would think these "experts" preferred the dictator and his short term guarantee of "stability" (Cold War tactics) over long term security.

    The Egytpian Army was always key, long before these "experts" found it fashionable and safe to say so. Many of their officers have attended War Colleges here in America. They hosted Operation Brightstar every two years, which brought Arab and Western militaries together for exercises (In 2001, the Marines got in trouble for not letting the Egyptians win the scenario). We fund and modernize the Egyptian military. We have shaped their military culture for decades, especially over the last 20 years. Ourmilitary leaders have close relationships with their military leaders. None of this is going to go away so that Egypt can create a religious theocracy.

    If we were to look at Egypt's history, we can see that not only did Egypt have a written history prior to Islam (Turkey and Iran as others), but it also had as loud a voice for democracy at the beginning of European colonialism as it did for Islamic law. Well, Islamic Law (and religious government) has proven to be incompatible to successful unrestrained modernization and the Nasser "monarchy" proved that secular dictatorship is unacceptable. Egyptians have seen what Sharia did for the abused and slaughtered Sudanese. They have seen Iraq vote and vote again as they get stronger and stronger. They have seen Iranian government oppress their people through religion. They have seen the religiously and socially freest Muslims in the region living in Israel.

    Democracy is exactly what Egypt is heading into. This is the natural phase for Egyptians. The Muslim Brotherhood will have seats and influence and the ability to survive, but religious monsters have no power where people have the ability to build modern free society.

    It's all in the books. People are too quick to look for the current event or the reporter to deliver them wisdom. Often enough, it's this short sighted behavior that blinds us to the probabilities as we act like "nobody could have known" after the fact. It's intellectual laziness to predict safe things or to focus on sensational headlines. Washington is full of these types and so is the media.
    The only thing that concerns me is the wide-ranging business interests that officers in the Egyptian military hold. And I don't think it is merely mid-level officers that hold them. They will not be interested in any threat to that.

    Turkey provides a fine example of mixing democracy and Islam. Here comes the Neo-Ottoman empire...

    EDIT: Ok, ok, it's not the only thing that concerns me. It is a fragile moment. I'm am an optimist about it. It's not like the Ukraine with Russia next door influencing half your population against the revolution. Egypt is the regional powerhouse.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 02-12-11 at 10:53 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Here is what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "And yet it has been the Christian Armies, not the Muslim Armies that are setting up military occupations in other countries all over the world, and we do it with God on our side I am told."
    Now who told you that "Christian Armies are setting up military occupations all over the world with God on our side".

    That's straightforward enough and does not involve Muslims whatsoever.

    Where are these "Christian Armies".

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I stated this 14 days ago while the commentators (known as "experts") on TV were focusing on whether or not to support the Egyptian people. I also remarked on the true long term security of America being dependent on foriegn democracies while these same "experts" began looking at short term scares like rising oil prices or the Muslim Brotherhood or Iran part II. You would think these "experts" preferred the dictator and his short term guarantee of "stability" (Cold War tactics) over long term security.

    The Egytpian Army was always key, long before these "experts" found it fashionable and safe to say so. Many of their officers have attended War Colleges here in America. They hosted Operation Brightstar every two years, which brought Arab and Western militaries together for exercises (In 2001, the Marines got in trouble for not letting the Egyptians win the scenario). We fund and modernize the Egyptian military. We have shaped their military culture for decades, especially over the last 20 years. Ourmilitary leaders have close relationships with their military leaders. None of this is going to go away so that Egypt can create a religious theocracy.

    If we were to look at Egypt's history, we can see that not only did Egypt have a written history prior to Islam (Turkey and Iran as others), but it also had as loud a voice for democracy at the beginning of European colonialism as it did for Islamic law. Well, Islamic Law (and religious government) has proven to be incompatible to successful unrestrained modernization and the Nasser "monarchy" proved that secular dictatorship is unacceptable. Egyptians have seen what Sharia did for the abused and slaughtered Sudanese. They have seen Iraq vote and vote again as they get stronger and stronger. They have seen Iranian government oppress their people through religion. They have seen the religiously and socially freest Muslims in the region living in Israel.

    Democracy is exactly what Egypt is heading into. This is the natural phase for Egyptians. The Muslim Brotherhood will have seats and influence and the ability to survive, but religious monsters have no power where people have the ability to build modern free society.

    It's all in the books. People are too quick to look for the current event or the reporter to deliver them wisdom. Often enough, it's this short sighted behavior that blinds us to the probabilities as we act like "nobody could have known" after the fact. It's intellectual laziness to predict safe things or to focus on sensational headlines. Washington is full of these types and so is the media.

    I recall that post and was skeptical of your rosy outlook and prediction but it seems you were right and I was wrong, at least so far. I hope you continue to be right and that democracy does spread throughout the Middle East.

    If it does it seems clear that much of the credit belongs to George Bush and his Operation Iraqi Freedom as well as his Operation Enduring Freedom campaigns.

    While he won't get the credit any time soon, the Left will see to that, history will no doubt judge him kindly, particularly in the Middle East.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Turkey provides a fine example of mixing democracy and Islam. Here comes the Neo-Ottoman empire...
    I believe Egypt will surpass Turkey in this regard. Turks were converts to Islam at the end of the Crusades (which is what sealed Christian defeat). Converts tend to have something to prove and since this is the place where 1400 years of the caliphate was abolished, they will strugle between Islam and government for some time.


    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Egypt is the regional powerhouse.
    Which is why I believe that it will change the region and the world to the positive. The caliphates resided in Baghdad and Cairo for a very long time before they lived in Istanbul. It was the Sunni elders of Mecca that sabotaged Islam once they lost their position on the throne. The so called "Golden Age" of Islam came to an end because Sunni elders decided it so. Ottoman Sultans were denied their attempts to modernize Islam and the region by Sunni elders on the Arabian peninsula repeatedly. Nasser of Egypt was secular and sought to separate Islam from government in Egyptians loved him. Sunni elders on the Arabian peninsula still seek to influence the region's Arabs and we can see this with the waves of Arabs into Iraq to kill Shia and western inspired democracy as well as the streak of radicalism in Egypt and others. But modernization, globalization, and the advent of communication technology has had a far greater influence on people than the religious figure who themes around hatred, racism, and persecution.

    Islam's future is now being determined before our very eyes by Istanbul, Baghdad, and now Cairo. Mecca is even more bitter, old, and stale than ever before.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You name the countries occupied by military forces that go with Allah and I'll name the countries occupied by military forces that go with God.
    Spain, France, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia, Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Serbia, Romania, Hungary, Albania, Slovenia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, Yemen, Somalia, Oman, Kuwait, Syria, Jordon, Israel, India, Gerogia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Turkmenistan, Azerbijan, Usbekistan, England, Canada, The United States have all come under atttack/been occupied by force by militant Muslim forces.

    This is Islam's history. Know, love it, live it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I recall that post and was skeptical of your rosy outlook and prediction but it seems you were right and I was wrong, at least so far. I hope you continue to be right and that democracy does spread throughout the Middle East.
    It's all in the history. For one, Democracy is the natural course for every single culture on earth. This Arab Middle East cannot be an exception. A reformation within Islam and they are like the rest of us. Hell, the first caliphate was democratically elected at a time when the Shia demanded blood line monarcy. Since mid 20th century, Iran (Shia) had been experimenting with democracy while it was the Arab governments (Sunni) embraced secular dictatorship. This has been changing since the invasion into Iraq in 2003. And second, democracy in Egypt has been a theme since Muhammad Ali (early 19th century). He modernized Egypt and westernized it as best he could. Despite his dynasty being a string of dictators, the people underneath began to lean towards democracy (Western influence) and religious radicalism (Meccan influence). When his dynasty passed to the Nasser dynasty in 1952, the same themes existed. However, both were willing trust in Nasser. Almost 60 years later, the screams from both side have become louder. The media and their "experts" will have you believe that it is the radical voice that controls the winds of change. But this is not true. Strength belongs to the democratic side. One may wonder what side would have the strength had Iraqis not served as examples or the absence of the Internet. If America can't get away with what it used to, because the entire world has the capacity and technology to pay attention, what does this mean for corrupt Arab leaders? You think they can get away with religious oppression or using "foriegn devils" to excuse their local behaviors and prescriptions anymore?


    The key to Islam's future is Istanbul, Baghdad, and Cairo. Shall we go out on a limb and forecast an eventual Tehran? Now I don't mean to imply that utopia or Vermont in the desert is one vote away. We have to be practical. After all, it even took the high and mighty French some 70 years to get to the other side of their experiment. But we should also appreciate that others of us have gone through the unknowns of democracy when nothing served as an example. Today, the world is quite familiar with the recipes. Iraq now holds the record for building a democracy (formerly it was the Dutch) and the rest of the region watched their so called "defenders of Islam" slaughter their fellow Muslim on international television and on the Internet with Bashir in Sudan, the Sunni in Iraq, and the Tali-Ban in Afghanistan. Al-Queda has killed far more fellow Muslims through collateral damage and racist execution than they have American troops. They know truth now more than ever before. They also know what does not work and they are starving for an Arab success after centuries of failures (the last 60 years being the most dramatic).
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-12-11 at 11:46 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I believe Egypt will surpass Turkey in this regard. Turks were converts to Islam at the end of the Crusades (which is what sealed Christian defeat). Converts tend to have something to prove and since this is the place where 1400 years of the caliphate was abolished, they will strugle between Islam and government for some time.




    Which is why I believe that it will change the region and the world to the positive. The caliphates resided in Baghdad and Cairo for a very long time before they lived in Istanbul. It was the Sunni elders of Mecca that sabotaged Islam once they lost their position on the throne. The so called "Golden Age" of Islam came to an end because Sunni elders decided it so. Ottoman Sultans were denied their attempts to modernize Islam and the region by Sunni elders on the Arabian peninsula repeatedly. Nasser of Egypt was secular and sought to separate Islam from government in Egyptians loved him. Sunni elders on the Arabian peninsula still seek to influence the region's Arabs and we can see this with the waves of Arabs into Iraq to kill Shia and western inspired democracy as well as the streak of radicalism in Egypt and others. But modernization, globalization, and the advent of communication technology has had a far greater influence on people than the religious figure who themes around hatred, racism, and persecution.

    Islam's future is now being determined before our very eyes by Istanbul, Baghdad, and now Cairo. Mecca is even more bitter, old, and stale than ever before.
    Other than a secular, Islamic mix of government, I think the Turkish economy has a big role to play in the influence Turkey will have in the region. Turkey definitely beats out Egypt in that regard.

    I kinda figured you were a conservative, given your military background etc, but you really do sound like a Neoconservative to me. I am very frustrated and pissed off by the short-term thinking and fear-mongering from conservatives. I had thought that one of their closest held principles was Liberty for all. Their reaction to the revolution in Egypt leaves me wanting. They are not optimistic or hopeful or inspired. Instead they are dour and cynical. Why do I want people with no hope in their soul to run my country? They are hypocrites, just like America has been in its support of dictatorships out of a desire for stability and pure greed.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The media and their "experts" will have you believe that it is the radical voice that controls the winds of change. But this is not true. Strength belongs to the democratic side. One may wonder what side would have the strength had Iraqis not served as examples or the absence of the Internet.
    I have been waiting since 2001 for the forces of liberalism in the Muslim world to make their stand. This will do.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Spain, France, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia, Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Serbia, Romania, Hungary, Albania, Slovenia, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, Yemen, Somalia, Oman, Kuwait, Syria, Jordon, Israel, India, Gerogia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgystan, Turkmenistan, Azerbijan, Usbekistan, England, Canada, The United States have all come under atttack/been occupied by force by militant Muslim forces.

    This is Islam's history. Know, love it, live it.
    Plus Indonesia, Argentina, Russia, Algeria, Holland, Morocco, and possibly more.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    It's all in the history. For one, Democracy is the natural course for every single culture on earth. This Arab Middle East cannot be an exception. A reformation within Islam and they are like the rest of us. Hell, the first caliphate was democratically elected at a time when the Shia demanded blood line monarcy. Since mid 20th century, Iran (Shia) had been experimenting with democracy while it was the Arab governments (Sunni) embraced secular dictatorship. This has been changing since the invasion into Iraq in 2003. And second, democracy in Egypt has been a theme since Muhammad Ali (early 19th century). He modernized Egypt and westernized it as best he could. Despite his dynasty being a string of dictators, the people underneath began to lean towards democracy (Western influence) and religious radicalism (Meccan influence). When his dynasty passed to the Nasser dynasty in 1952, the same themes existed. However, both were willing trust in Nasser. Almost 60 years later, the screams from both side have become louder. The media and their "experts" will have you believe that it is the radical voice that controls the winds of change. But this is not true. Strength belongs to the democratic side. One may wonder what side would have the strength had Iraqis not served as examples or the absence of the Internet. If America can't get away with what it used to, because the entire world has the capacity and technology to pay attention, what does this mean for corrupt Arab leaders? You think they can get away with religious oppression or using "foriegn devils" to excuse their local behaviors and prescriptions anymore?


    The key to Islam's future is Istanbul, Baghdad, and Cairo. Shall we go out on a limb and forecast an eventual Tehran? Now I don't mean to imply that utopia or Vermont in the desert is one vote away. We have to be practical. After all, it even took the high and mighty French some 70 years to get to the other side of their experiment. But we should also appreciate that others of us have gone through the unknowns of democracy when nothing served as an example. Today, the world is quite familiar with the recipes. Iraq now holds the record for building a democracy (formerly it was the Dutch) and the rest of the region watched their so called "defenders of Islam" slaughter their fellow Muslim on international television and on the Internet with Bashir in Sudan, the Sunni in Iraq, and the Tali-Ban in Afghanistan. Al-Queda has killed far more fellow Muslims through collateral damage and racist execution than they have American troops. They know truth now more than ever before. They also know what does not work and they are starving for an Arab success after centuries of failures (the last 60 years being the most dramatic).
    I recall the darker days of the Cold War when it was the Americans who were being criticized through protest marches and in the media while the Communists actually had some sympathy. Still do in some quarters. At that time I also had doubts about whether democracy could survive when quite intelligent people were quite supportive of Communism and offering it as an alternative lifestyle. It was always the American leaders who were stupid while the sophisticated Communist leaders enjoyed jazz and fine wines.

    Now it seems that I didn't have enough confidence in my fellow man and you appear right that "Democracy is the natural course for every single culture on earth".

    The deeper question remains of why those living in the democracies don't see its advantages and then fight for democracy everywhere. How do those who should know better rationalize Fascism, Communism, Islamism, Nazism, and so on, while blaming democracy (or "capitalism") for all the world's ills?

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