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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    All the people know is work, get paid, spend it, have a family, and vote, the same way it is here. The difference is Arabs don't have idealistic illusions.

    ricksfolly
    Why should idealism be an illusion?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    IMO, the President should only have stated that he believes a peaceful democratic evolution in Egypt is feasible. Nothing more. By pushing for specific changes and then failing to attain them, risks are created. For example, let's say the U.S. is seen as having shaped a transitional government and then the people are dissatisfied with the progress of that transitional government. Then, public perceptions in Egypt could turn against the U.S., holding it, in part, responsible for an unsatisfactory situation. If, against that backdrop, a new government emerges, it could well choose to redefine Egypt's relationship with the U.S. in a direction that reduces U.S. influence (that would be blamed for bad outcomes) even if the bilateral relationship is sustained. That approach would undermine U.S. interests. However, had the President only stated a belief that a democratic transformation is feasible, then the U.S. would be in a less bad position. Were the current government ultimately to prevail, the U.S. would not have been seen as trying to push it from power. Were the populist movement to prevail, the U.S. would have been perceived as having been friendly to democratic changes.

    I believe Henry Kissinger put it best when he advised with respect to U.S. policy concerning events in Egypt, "It should not look like an American project. The Egyptians are a proud people. They threw out the British and they threw out the Russians."
    Obama should just be quiet until the smoke clears. He can do long term damage and make the United States look foolish if he continues to guess his way along, or speak foreign policy for a local audience, in an attempt to give the impression that he has some international authority, moral or military, over unfolding events.
    Last edited by Grant; 02-08-11 at 02:27 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Public perceptions in Egypt are already against the U.S. Time to stop the hypocrisy and help remove a dictatorship we've supported all these years. It has been a deal with the devil, to protect our interests. Maybe, just maybe we can start to turn around the anti-Americanism by example. If we need to sacrifice our interests to do so, we should.
    The United States played the major role in removing the worst dictator in the Middle East and received nothing more than public criticism from both their former Allies as well as other Middle East countries. Let them work it out themselves and then, if they cause any problem to the American people, hit them very bloody hard.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That is yet to be determined. Right now, it still can't stand against its own people without the most powerful military on the planet propping it up.
    The Americans and Canadians had to do the same in Western Europe and the Americans are still there.

    If Western Europe, with some history of democracy couldn't manage without the Americans, how do you expect the Iraqis to do it?





    From what I've heard that whole US military invasion and indefinite occupation thing doesn't go over too well in the Arab world.[/QUOTE]

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    reefedjib -

    The evidence is that the new regime cannot stand on its own to date without the presence of our 35,000 combat ready troops with the full support of the most powerful military on the planet. When all troops have been withdrawn, you can then raise your "Mission Accomplished" flag, at least until the Iraqis resume their civil war.
    A civil war in Iraq?

    That's the Islamists murdering the Iraqi people, the religious fanatics who want Islam everywhere, but especially in the entire Middle East. It has nothing to do with the ordinary Iraqi people.
    Last edited by Grant; 02-08-11 at 02:28 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    A civil war in Iraq?

    That's the Islamists murdering the Iraqi people, the religious fanatics who want Islam everywhere, but especially in the entire Middle East. It has nothing to do with the ordinary Iraqi people.
    Sunni and Shi'a are different factions but they are both ordinary Iraqi people. They were in conflict long before our military occupation and they will, more likely than not, resume their conflict once we remove our 35,000 combat ready troops.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    reefedjib -
    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib
    Are our military forces involved at all in local security of the population or enabling the authority of the Iraqi government? Evidence.
    The evidence is that the new regime cannot stand on its own to date without the presence of our 35,000 combat ready troops with the full support of the most powerful military on the planet. When all troops have been withdrawn, you can then raise your "Mission Accomplished" flag, at least until the Iraqis resume their civil war.
    Nonsense. You are wrong as usual. As has been pointed out, we still have troops in Germany 65 years after the end of World War II. Just like in Iraq, these troops stick to their bases and assigned exercise areas and are not involved at all in in local security of the population or enabling the authority of the German government. The presence of foreign troops does not in any way limit the sovereignty of the Iraqi government.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Sunni and Shi'a are different factions but they are both ordinary Iraqi people. They were in conflict long before our military occupation and they will, more likely than not, resume their conflict once we remove our 35,000 combat ready troops.
    Crystal ball a little cloudy today?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Sunni and Shi'a are different factions but they are both ordinary Iraqi people. They were in conflict long before our military occupation and they will, more likely than not, resume their conflict once we remove our 35,000 combat ready troops.
    Ordinary Iraqi people don't go around setting off car bombs in market squares.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The Americans and Canadians had to do the same in Western Europe and the Americans are still there.

    If Western Europe, with some history of democracy couldn't manage without the Americans, how do you expect the Iraqis to do it?
    I don't believe this is a fair characterization. Over time, the U.S. presence in Western Europe became strictly about assisting with national security (against the U.S.S.R. and its allies)/the global balance of power, not about helping maintain law/order/internal stability. In Iraq, the diminishing U.S. presence is still largely focused on the latter.

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