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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    Why is democracy in the Middle East a "disaster"? While it might make the dictatorships, theocrats and other special interest groups nervous it might be welcomed by the people, once they get used to the idea.
    All the people know is work, get paid, spend it, have a family, and vote, the same way it is here. The difference is Arabs don't have idealistic illusions.

    ricksfolly

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    ALL Sunni suicide bombing was directed at their long-time enemies, the Shiite, as we've seen and read about for the last 7 years, and could have nothing to do with the religion they both follow, Muslim.

    ricksfolly
    1. The both follow Islam - not Muslim.
    2. I think the Israel People, our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq, and those who died on 9/11 would disagree that "all Sunni suicide bombing was directed at their long-time enemies, the Shiite"

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    IMO, the President should only have stated that he believes a peaceful democratic evolution in Egypt is feasible. Nothing more. By pushing for specific changes and then failing to attain them, risks are created. For example, let's say the U.S. is seen as having shaped a transitional government and then the people are dissatisfied with the progress of that transitional government. Then, public perceptions in Egypt could turn against the U.S., holding it, in part, responsible for an unsatisfactory situation. If, against that backdrop, a new government emerges, it could well choose to redefine Egypt's relationship with the U.S. in a direction that reduces U.S. influence (that would be blamed for bad outcomes) even if the bilateral relationship is sustained. That approach would undermine U.S. interests. However, had the President only stated a belief that a democratic transformation is feasible, then the U.S. would be in a less bad position. Were the current government ultimately to prevail, the U.S. would not have been seen as trying to push it from power. Were the populist movement to prevail, the U.S. would have been perceived as having been friendly to democratic changes.

    I believe Henry Kissinger put it best when he advised with respect to U.S. policy concerning events in Egypt, "It should not look like an American project. The Egyptians are a proud people. They threw out the British and they threw out the Russians."

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    IMO, the President should only have stated that he believes a peaceful democratic evolution in Egypt is feasible. Nothing more. By pushing for specific changes and then failing to attain them, risks are created. For example, let's say the U.S. is seen as having shaped a transitional government and then the people are dissatisfied with the progress of that transitional government. Then, public perceptions in Egypt could turn against the U.S., holding it, in part, responsible for an unsatisfactory situation. If, against that backdrop, a new government emerges, it could well choose to redefine Egypt's relationship with the U.S. in a direction that reduces U.S. influence (that would be blamed for bad outcomes) even if the bilateral relationship is sustained. That approach would undermine U.S. interests. However, had the President only stated a belief that a democratic transformation is feasible, then the U.S. would be in a less bad position. Were the current government ultimately to prevail, the U.S. would not have been seen as trying to push it from power. Were the populist movement to prevail, the U.S. would have been perceived as having been friendly to democratic changes.

    I believe Henry Kissinger put it best when he advised with respect to U.S. policy concerning events in Egypt, "It should not look like an American project. The Egyptians are a proud people. They threw out the British and they threw out the Russians."
    Public perceptions in Egypt are already against the U.S. Time to stop the hypocrisy and help remove a dictatorship we've supported all these years. It has been a deal with the devil, to protect our interests. Maybe, just maybe we can start to turn around the anti-Americanism by example. If we need to sacrifice our interests to do so, we should.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    IMO, the President should only have stated that he believes a peaceful democratic evolution in Egypt is feasible.
    The demonstration may not be a cry for democracy as everyone assumes. It could be just an angry attempt to get Mub to resign for a variety of reasons.

    ricksfolly

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    The demonstration may not be a cry for democracy as everyone assumes. It could be just an angry attempt to get Mub to resign for a variety of reasons.

    ricksfolly

    Not any sort of varity in my mind, only one. Islamic take over of the entire region.


    j-mac
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    They are, for Christ's sake. They have a ratified constitution.
    By a corrupt regime that we enabled and continue to prop up with a military occupation.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Now it is a Democracy doing very well.
    That is yet to be determined. Right now, it still can't stand against its own people without the most powerful military on the planet propping it up.


    Yes, there is still a long way to go, but as young as it is, it inspires Democracy through the Arab world.

    From what I've heard that whole US military invasion and indefinite occupation thing doesn't go over too well in the Arab world.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    YAWN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    By a corrupt regime that we enabled and continue to prop up with a military occupation.
    Is the American government corrupt? Why and how does the Iraqi government's corruption delegitimize the recognition of its authority by the Iraqis?

    Are our military forces involved at all in local security of the population or enabling the authority of the Iraqi government? Evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That is yet to be determined. Right now, it still can't stand against its own people without the most powerful military on the planet propping it up.
    We are not propping it up. See above.

    From what I've heard that whole US military invasion and indefinite occupation thing doesn't go over too well in the Arab world.
    No it doesn't. But that doesn't matter. The Arab world sees the path to Democracy that Iraqis themselves took. The Iraqis voted for a government that drafted a constitution that was ratified by the Iraqis and they have had 2 national elections under that constitution's auspices. It most certainly inspires the Arab world.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    reefedjib -
    Are our military forces involved at all in local security of the population or enabling the authority of the Iraqi government? Evidence.
    The evidence is that the new regime cannot stand on its own to date without the presence of our 35,000 combat ready troops with the full support of the most powerful military on the planet. When all troops have been withdrawn, you can then raise your "Mission Accomplished" flag, at least until the Iraqis resume their civil war.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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