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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    *facepalm*
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    I suppose most want a faster transition but Obama is not alone, nor first.
    Probably arriving at that position reluctantly to avoid chaos.

    "..The Obama administration joined other Western nations Saturday in endorsing embattled Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's gradual exit from power and, in a shift, urged Egyptians to back the power transition Mubarak and his closest advisers have set in motion..."
    Last edited by mbig; 02-05-11 at 11:53 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Uhh I'm pretty sure there is a substantial difference between supporting the democratic aspirations of protesters, and forcibly invading a country and imposing it on them. The war in Iraq was an absolute geopolitical catastrophe, both for the United States and for the nations of the Middle East.
    As long as the people accept it by their own choice, then there's no difference. It remains to be seen that 1) the anti-government boys are actually trying to establish democracy and 2) that they're motivated purely by the will of the people.

    There have been no declarations, constitutions, nor referendums; which means that so far, these are just a buncha clowns raising hell in the street.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    I don't think invading Egypt is a smart idea. From what I am reading in the news and what my co-worker told me who is from Egypt, there is a lot of anti-American feeling behind the protests and they feel their government has represented foreign interests ahead of their own. If America were to invade the people would be more likely to support a new radical government just for the sake of keeping the U.S. out, even though it would be bad for them.

    Mubarak tossed out his cabinet within the past couple of days so there are signs that the government as it is will not survive. The Egyptians seem to have a big understanding of what is needed next and based on the peaceful protests that include songs and dances, it seems like they are aiming for a democratic government that will put them first.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    normally, the opinion of a talking head is not of much note

    but this is cfr's gelb, here

    in other words, obama cares

    The Obama White House hasn't helped matters by shifting policy ground almost daily, causing confusion, and thereby squandering America's credibility and limited but precious influence. President Obama has got to learn the fundamental rule of dealing with careening crises: State your basic principles and then shut up publicly! (Meaning, just boringly repeat your mantra daily.)

    The United States has no power to shape events in Egypt, but it does have real influence. Using that influence effectively absolutely requires consistency out of the White House. That has not been forthcoming

    Here's the gist of the administration's rhetorical roller coaster since the crisis began: They started out saying that Mubarak's regime was "stable," they proclaimed Egypt a "close and important ally," suggesting the need to support Mubarak, and added that he was not a "dictator." Then they threatened to review the billion-dollar U.S. aid package to Egypt, a real body blow to Mubarak and the military. After Mubarak said he would not run for reelection in September, they called for an "orderly transition." As protests continued, they called for Mubarak to begin the transition "now." In sum, they danced to and fro during the first several days and then increasingly hardened their position against Mubarak even as they were privately trying to get him to participate in his own political demise.

    The only statement that made complete sense throughout this roller-coaster process was Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's on Sunday: "It needs to be an orderly, peaceful transition to real democracy, not faux democracy." That's the heart of the matter, and that's all the administration should have been saying publicly along with a line like, "And, of course, we stand ready to help Egyptians as and when they call upon us to do so."
    Egypt Protests: Obama

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    But what's the point of this? You aren't GOING to eliminate Islam from the world, no matter how much you wish you could. So what's the point of complaining about how horrible it is, other than to make yourself feel superior?
    You cannot address an issue if you continue to deny the issue. The point is to make it more manageable. And aside from their economic stations, they have to address their religion. Pretending that religion is not the key ingredient in their problem is exactly why this struggle will be harder and longer than it has to be.

    ...and it's not exactly the West that fancies itself as superior. Isn't God supposed to be on their righteous side? Isn't it the Sunni Arab that looks down on all other Muslim tribes? Isn't it the Sunni tribe that levied taxes upon non-Muslims throughout history? Did you know that it was the Arab slave trade, in accordance to Muhammad prescription, that identified non-Christian/non-Jews/non-Muslims as ther only acceptable source for slavery, which meant the unaffiliated black? And that Europeans identified blacks south of the northern regions in Africa as the Atlantic Slave Trade source to stay clear of black Muslim Arabs as a result? Let's not pretend that these people are hapless victims of the outside world and that they haven't lifted "racism" and superiority to a superhuman level. And before you dismiss these type things as insignificant in the year 2011, let's also remember that these people largely live within their history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post

    Disagree. If the countries were better developed economically and didn't radiate a sense of hopelessness and poverty, there would be far fewer people willing to throw their lives away to lash out against some perceived enemy. The fact that there are ALREADY plenty of Muslim countries that fit this description should be evidence of that.
    Well, you're not disagreeing with me. I agree with your first sentence. I have argued this enough to the dimwitted masses here on this site and this is why I stated above that the point is to make this more manageable (and yes this damn well means a successful Iraq in the heart of the Sunni Arab world). But your last sentence still misses the mark and I really don't know why you keep doing this. Indonesia and these other Muslim nations you keep holding up have absolutely nothing to do with the Sunni heartland of the Middle East. I have tried to make this point to you before.....

    It is an absolute fact that the further people and nations get from Mecca, the healthier they appear. Look at the globe. This is a general rule. It is true for individuals, governments, and religions. I believe this has absolutely everything to do with the concentrated Sunni tribe. There is no coincidence that, when the Sunni tribe lost stewardship of Islam to the Ottoman's, the Sunni Arabs locked down all scientific and philosophical study in the region for all Muslims. There is no coincidence that even as the Ottoman Turks tried to move Islam into the modern future, it was the Sunni elders in the heartland that continually managed to prevent all reformation. There is no coincidence that in Sudan and Iraq it was the Sunni tribe that orchestrated mass slaughter of their fellow non-Arab Muslims. and there is no coincidence that Iraq's progressing democracy is absolutely due to its government not being of largely Sunni membership, but largely Shia. Is it a coincidence that the freest Muslims in the regions live under a Jewsih government and not a Sunni Arab one? And with all the money the U.S. has given to almost every single nation in this region over the last 65-ish years, only Israel maintains a sense of great prosperity and social justice for all its religious people?

    Therefore, I submit that for politicial fear of actually looking into the Islamic culture, people miss the mark by pretending that any of these Middle Eastern Arab cultures, which have no recorded history prior to Islam, can look like Indonesia, a country as far removed from the source of the problem as possible. Sunni Arabs can thrive in democracy when they do not have a Sunni Arab government above them. The tendency to voice their superiority above all others has been historically traditional and has facilitated oppression and the fact that Muhammad was a Sunni doesn't help. Aside from their economic problems in the Middle East, all Muslims and non-Muslims have to contend with the entirely religious Sunni tribe who have no history prior to Muhammad. Pray in Arabic? Face Mecca? So God can't speak other languages or can't be everywhere as the Qu'ran states? I subscribe to the prospect that down through the centuries, people have unwittingly been offering their allegiances to the Sunni tribe rather than true faith in God. After all, is God in Rome and speaking Latin in the West still?

    Look at another point. How much more healthier does Egypt, Turkey, and Iran look as compared to all the other Arab governments? While you may seek to show where they are imperfect, you must also admit that they have had a certain potential to experiment (and more nationalistic) that the others seem to not have. The big difference between them and the rest is that they have a recorded history prior to Islam. For the rest, Islam is the beginning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Like what?
    1) Christianity didn't start with government and therefore does not have the root prescription that it belongs in government (it would serve our Christian base to remember this). Before Muhammad died, government was Islam and directly after he died the Rashidun exploded Islam out into the world as government.

    2) Jesus was an activist and died a "failure." Muhammad was an activist, judge, politician, general, and soveriegn. He died "successful."


    These two very bold truths have facilitated the paths of both religions. The separation between church and state was always going to be easier in Christianity - "Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser and render unto God that which is God." Clear separation. No such scriptures exist in the Qu'ran because Islam was never not government and was alwasy supposed to be. Who was the orginial Caeser of Islam? It wasn't the first caliphate. There is also the manner in which Islam thrived when it was in its purity under the Prophet. It's Muhammad's life example that lends legitimacy towards Islamic warriors. The worse Islam's scene has become down through history is supposed to be evidence of how "Westernized" they were leaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You can sit back and blame their religion, which you can't change. Or you can consider solutions to things that CAN be changed, like poverty and state governance. Your.
    Without adressing their cultural failures, which is absolutely rooted in Islam, they only address part of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I have a feeling that most of the countries in question will be far more amenable to "Gradually reduce your subsidies and tariffs, and improve free speech and women's rights" than they will to "Stop being so damn Muslim."
    Well, this is actually the issue you seem to be avoiding. What is Muslim? According to the radical, he is Muslim. According to the extremist, he is Muslim. According to the modernist, he is Muslim. According to the secularist, he is Muslim. I'm sure all of Bashir's men on the slaughhter path considered themselves Muslim. And how Muslim is Al-Queda, the Tali-Ban, Hezbollah, etc.? Until this Sunni base of operations in the Middle East figures out what a "good" Muslim is, money won't buy peace. Religious reformation must also be a focus.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-06-11 at 02:59 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    I don't think invading Egypt is a smart idea. From what I am reading in the news and what my co-worker told me who is from Egypt, there is a lot of anti-American feeling behind the protests and they feel their government has represented foreign interests ahead of their own. If America were to invade the people would be more likely to support a new radical government just for the sake of keeping the U.S. out, even though it would be bad for them.

    Mubarak tossed out his cabinet within the past couple of days so there are signs that the government as it is will not survive. The Egyptians seem to have a big understanding of what is needed next and based on the peaceful protests that include songs and dances, it seems like they are aiming for a democratic government that will put them first.
    Who said anything about invading Egypt?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Uhh I'm pretty sure there is a substantial difference between supporting the democratic aspirations of protesters, and forcibly invading a country and imposing it on them. The war in Iraq was an absolute geopolitical catastrophe, both for the United States and for the nations of the Middle East.
    Others countries haven't been particularly bothered by having democracy "imposed" on them and it's not clear why the people of Iraq shouldn;t feel the same. Theyt certainly had a murderous dictatorship imposed on them, that's certain.

    Why is democracy in the Middle East a "disaster"? While it might make the dictatorships, theocrats and other special interest groups nervous it might be welcomed by the people, once they get used to the idea.

    It was often said that Blacks couldn't handle democracy, nor the Japanese, Chinese and so on. I see immigrants from many countries living quite happily in democracies and it seems to suit them fine.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    If you strip away the legitimcay that Allah provides, there would be far less people seeking to end their life through suicide and willing to commit mass murder. When tribes within this religion use their God to legitimize the slaughter of even their own fellow poor and economically starving people in another camp, I feel it should be obvious to even those without the study.
    ALL Sunni suicide bombing was directed at their long-time enemies, the Shiite, as we've seen and read about for the last 7 years, and could have nothing to do with the religion they both follow, Muslim.

    ricksfolly

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    It's still anybody's ball game.

    The Egyptian military has rounded up scores of human rights activists, protest organizers and journalists in recent days without formal charges, according to watchdog groups and accounts by the detainees.

    Read more: Despite talk of concessions, Egyptian military cracking down | McClatchy
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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