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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post

    Not at all, I know I am right. The Bush Democracy Agenda is completely 10,000% vindicated with current events. Current events have the democratization of Iraq as both a model and an inspiration for what they are now about.
    You disagree with this? This was the PRIMARY strategic objective of invading Iraq. It has completely worked, as democracy movements start to flourish throughout the Middle East - Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Jordan, Syria, ...

    I hope you weren't one of those who claim to be a liberal and yet opposed this most liberal of objectives. Those kinds of people are ****ing hypocrites and are covered in **** and have no claim to ideals of integrity. They opposed Bush's ideals for political reasons. What a bunch of ****ing god-damn piece of **** assholes. Those people probably oppose democracy in Egypt. Pricks.

    Bush to the UN Sept 12, 2002:
    If we meet our responsibilities, if we overcome this danger, we can arrive at a very different future. The people of Iraq can shake off their captivity. They can one day join a democratic Afghanistan and a democratic Palestine, inspiring reforms throughout the Muslim world. These nations can show by their example that honest government, and respect for women, and the great Islamic tradition of learning can triumph in the Middle East and beyond.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You disagree with this? This was the PRIMARY strategic objective of invading Iraq. It has completely worked, as democracy movements start to flourish throughout the Middle East - Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Jordan, Syria, ...
    Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria are certainly primed toward democratic evolution, given their level of economic development and the fact that they have little oil. I'm much less confident that when we look back in 10 years, Iraq or Yemen will be heartwarming stories of democracy. I think the level of democracy you're seeing in Iraq is about the best it's going to get for a very long time, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised to see it regress to full-fledged authoritarianism.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib
    I hope you weren't one of those who claim to be a liberal and yet opposed this most liberal of objectives. Those kinds of people are ****ing hypocrites and are covered in **** and have no claim to ideals of integrity. They opposed Bush's ideals for political reasons. What a bunch of ****ing god-damn piece of **** assholes. Those people probably oppose democracy in Egypt. Pricks.
    Uhh I'm pretty sure there is a substantial difference between supporting the democratic aspirations of protesters, and forcibly invading a country and imposing it on them. The war in Iraq was an absolute geopolitical catastrophe, both for the United States and for the nations of the Middle East.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria are certainly primed toward democratic evolution, given their level of economic development and the fact that they have little oil. I'm much less confident that when we look back in 10 years, Iraq or Yemen will be heartwarming stories of democracy. I think the level of democracy you're seeing in Iraq is about the best it's going to get for a very long time, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised to see it regress to full-fledged authoritarianism.
    I certainly won't say anything about Yemen, a very difficult situation. As far as Iraq goes, it is certainly possible that it will regress. I do think it is important to note that there is a variety of competing interests, represented both within the ruling coalition and with the opposition parties. I think there are a large number of Shiites concerned about Iranian influence and not enthusiastic about a religiously dominated government. Note that Maliki is NOT a cleric nor particularly explicit about his religion. Of course, Saddam was also not particularly religious yet still created an autocracy. So, it is also entirely possible that Iraq becomes an authoritarian regime with no religious overtones.

    While it is possible, I think it would be very hard to implement as I really don't think the Iraqis, en masse, would willingly go back to being enslaved by secret police. I think they would fight against it. However, it can be an insidious development.


    Uhh I'm pretty sure there is a substantial difference between supporting the democratic aspirations of protesters, and forcibly invading a country and imposing it on them.
    Yet, those same people would have us invade Zimbabwe, Congo, Sudan? Iraq tried to free itself and we capitulated on our promise to support them. With modern weaponry, if the Army decides to oppose a revolution, you are **** out of luck. Invasion was the only possible way to free Iraq. Humanitarian Intervention is a perfectly justifiable reason to go to war. From Just War Theory.

    Finally, we didn't force it on them as they elected the government that negotiated the constitution and the Iraqis voted to ratify it. The Iraqis chose their system of government and their current instance of government. It is theirs; they own it.

    The war in Iraq was an absolute geopolitical catastrophe, both for the United States and for the nations of the Middle East.
    Absolutely not! It was a geopolitical masterstroke and we are are just starting to see the impact it will have on the Middle East. It is a boon for all the people of the Middle East. Between the two of them, Osama and Bush completely changed the hypocritical nature of our ideals vs our foreign policies to the region. The invasion of Iraq sets up the only alternative to religious fundamentalism to replace the dictatorships.

    Democracy is the antidote to oppression.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 02-05-11 at 03:56 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Here are the Democracy Indexes of every non-oil-based country in the world, plotted against their GDP per capita. The relationship between economic development and democracy is very strong.



    Some countries are slightly above the line and others are slightly below the line. My theory is that if a country gets too far below the line, it will inevitably have some democratic revolution or evolution, to get it closer to where it "should" be. What countries would those be?

    Country / Democracy Deficit
    Tunisia / -3.36
    North Korea / -3.35
    Uzbekistan / -3.25
    China / -2.75
    Djibouti / -2.69
    Cuba / -2.67
    Egypt / -2.64
    Laos / -2.63
    Swaziland / -2.48
    Burma / -2.15
    Vietnam / -2.05
    Tajikistan / -2.03
    Guinea-Bissau / -1.93
    Jordan / -1.81
    Fiji / -1.71
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-05-11 at 04:11 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I hope you weren't one of those who claim to be a liberal and yet opposed this most liberal of objectives. Those kinds of people are ****ing hypocrites and are covered in **** and have no claim to ideals of integrity. They opposed Bush's ideals for political reasons. What a bunch of ****ing god-damn piece of **** assholes. Those people probably oppose democracy in Egypt. Pricks.
    Moderator's Warning:
    Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime Tone it down, reef, this is borderline, esp after a warning. If you can't remain calm, stay out of the thread.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I have lived most of my adult life under the yoke of leftist governance. I have been forced to dissemble, cooperate, and even contribute to their corruption in order to get ahead.
    Both Libs and Cons are corrupt... They both had to make shady deals just to get elected. They're just a bunch of spoiled overgrown children who will do anything to get their own way.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I've no doubt that those recruited are as you describe but their commonality is still Islam, rich or poor.
    Absolutely. I have never understood why people are so quick to deny themtheir religious identities and prefer rather to just make this an economic issue. Islam is a very common environmental and social theme between Cairo and Islamabad. If you strip away the legitimcay that Allah provides, there would be far less people seeking to end their life through suicide and willing to commit mass murder. When tribes within this religion use their God to legitimize the slaughter of even their own fellow poor and economically starving people in another camp, I feel it should be obvious to even those without the study.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-05-11 at 07:13 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If we reduced poverty and strengthened states, would that eliminate all terrorism? Of course not. There will always be random sociopaths and extremists. But it would eliminate the breeding grounds for them.
    But you are too willing to excuse the extremely big pile of **** in the room for the sake of a wider general definition. If you eliminate Islam from the world, where does this leave the great debate of terrorism? Far more manageable? The Middle East (and the outsiders in Europe who kill out of religious guilt) sits in its own category. Mass Islamic terrorism between Muslim tribes in the Middle East goes way back. You simply cannot pretend that their religion is not a huge factor in this. Not when every single terrorist describes himself as Islamic. Not when every single attack comes with written praise to God first and foremost. Not when every single written source of inspiration is saturated in Islamic verse. And certainly not when regional recruitment is as easy as a zealot's instruction. Far from just being economic, the Middle East has groomed a local culture of terror for some time and it is absoluterly rooted in Islamic tribe first. When the Sunni were slaughtering the Shia in Iraq and slaughtering non-Arabs in Sudan (there are plenty of reigonal examples), the verbal legitimizer was and always is Islam. You can make them all rich, but their idea of God still demands his human sacrifice and this culture will always have plenty of self-appointed executioners of God.

    What we are witnessing today in the Middle east is almost exactly what people witnessed in Europe during the Christian reformation. The very grave difference may be that Islam doesn't have the mechanisms in place that will make their evolution easier. The Crusade era of war between the Crescent and the Cross is long over. Only the Crescent continues to be the source of so much internal and external violent source.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-05-11 at 07:17 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    But you are too willing to excuse the extremely big pile of **** in the room for the sake of a wider general definition. If you eliminate Islam from the world, where does this leave the great debate of terrorism? Far more manageable?
    But what's the point of this? You aren't GOING to eliminate Islam from the world, no matter how much you wish you could. So what's the point of complaining about how horrible it is, other than to make yourself feel superior?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    The Middle East (and the outsiders in Europe who kill out of religious guilt) sits in its own category. Mass Islamic terrorism between Muslim tribes in the Middle East goes way back. You simply cannot pretend that their religion is not a huge factor in this. Not when every single terrorist describes himself as Islamic.
    I think it's more a matter of our media describing violent Islamists as terrorists, and violent non-Islamists as something else...militants, separatists, gang members, criminals, psychopaths, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    Not when every single attack comes with written praise to God first and foremost. Not when every single written source of inspiration is saturated in Islamic verse. And certainly not when regional recruitment is as easy as a zealot's instruction.
    Yep, when people are about to do something barbaric, they typically need a way to rationalize it to themselves and/or the rest of society. Some do it in the name of religion. Others do it in the name of nationalism. Others do it in the name of some political agenda. Religion happens to be the most convenient choice in the Arab world right now, but this mindset is by no means an intractable part of Arab culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    Far from just being economic, the Middle East has groomed a local culture of terror for some time and it is absoluterly rooted in Islamic tribe first. When the Sunni were slaughtering the Shia in Iraq and slaughtering non-Arabs in Sudan (there are plenty of reigonal examples), the verbal legitimizer was and always is Islam. You can make them all rich, but their idea of God still demands his human sacrifice and this culture will always have plenty of self-appointed executioners of God.
    Disagree. If the countries were better developed economically and didn't radiate a sense of hopelessness and poverty, there would be far fewer people willing to throw their lives away to lash out against some perceived enemy. The fact that there are ALREADY plenty of Muslim countries that fit this description should be evidence of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    What we are witnessing today in the Middle east is almost exactly what people witnessed in Europe during the Christian reformation. The very grave difference may be that Islam doesn't have the mechanisms in place that will make their evolution easier.
    Like what?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt
    The Crusade era of war between the Crescent and the Cross is long over. Only the Crescent continues to be the source of so much internal and external violent source.
    You can sit back and blame their religion, which you can't change. Or you can consider solutions to things that CAN be changed, like poverty and state governance. Your choice. I have a feeling that most of the countries in question will be far more amenable to "Gradually reduce your subsidies and tariffs, and improve free speech and women's rights" than they will to "Stop being so damn Muslim."
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-05-11 at 09:37 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    To ensure order, Obama officials back slow-motion change in Egypt - Politics Wires - MiamiHerald.com
    WILLIAM DOUGLAS/WARREN P. STROBEL
    MCCLATCHY NEWSPAPERS 02.05.11

    The Obama administration joined other Western nations Saturday in endorsing embattled Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's gradual exit from power and, in a shift, urged Egyptians to back the power transition Mubarak and his closest advisers have set in motion.

    Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, speaking at a security conference, touted the transition concept, a strategy that tens of thousands of Egyptian protesters in Cairo appear to reject in favor Mubarak's immediate ouster.

    "I think it's important to support the transition process announced by the Egyptian government, actually headed by now-Vice President Omar Suleiman," Clinton said. "That is what we are supporting, and hope to see it move as orderly but as expeditiously as possible, under the circumstances."

    At the White House, administration officials said President Barack Obama was briefed Saturday on the latest situation in Egypt, including the resignations of senior officials of Egypt's National Democratic Party, among them Mubarak's son, Gamal.
    Administration officials offered a diplomatic response to the resignations.

    "As the president has repeatedly said, Egyptians will be the ones that decide how this transition occurs," National Security Council Spokesman Tommy Vietor said Saturday. "We welcome any step that provides credibility to that process."

    But an administration official, who asked not to be identified to speak more freely, added: "We view this as a positive step toward the political change that will be necessary, and look forward to additional steps."..."
    Last edited by mbig; 02-05-11 at 11:45 PM.
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