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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Only these kooks are in power and they abuse it to get votes from the uneducated Iraqi majority.

    We have all seen the effects and policies put in place by leaders of the Shiite conservative movement. Can you see Maliki and his ilk standing up for modernism and progressivism? These people do not believe in the values of secularism. They WILL impose a religious approach to the Iraqi democracy.
    You are a fear-monger claiming that since there is a religious component and background to the ruling coalition, that it must devolve to something like Iran's situation. The FACTS are that even though there is the religious component, human rights and Bill of Rights style rights are enshrined their constitution and is put into practice. There is no secret police rounding up citizens that disagree with the government. Protests occur against the government with no consequences and no violence. There is freedom of religion. Yes, there are militias and terrorists wreaking some havocc, but NOTHING THEY DO AFFECTS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF IRAQ AND ITS CONSTITUTION.

    If its democracy is not formed from a secular and moderate viewpoint, how can you possibly say it is a model democracy? Without these basic principles, how can the Iraqi Democracy ever mature to a level that is acceptable and that respects the rights of all man?
    Bull****. You are applying western notions to an Islamic Democracy. It does NOT invalidate Iraq's Democracy as a model to other Islamic countries.


    Nothing to the extent of the US. Incomparable even.
    Not incomparable. You are setting an unachievable standard for a 5 year old Democracy. 7 years ago it was a despicable, I mean truly despicable, dictatorship. Now it is a Democracy doing very well. Yes, there is still a long way to go, but as young as it is, it inspires Democracy through the Arab world. You keep claiming it does not and you are simply wrong.


    Your judging a successful Democracy on the amount of newspapers there are in Iraq and the amount of political parties, which according to you, is evidence of free speech - a poor argument indeed. Media is censored just like it is in Jordan or Egypt and political dissent is handled just like it is in any other part of the Arab world. So how does it stand out? It doesnt.
    Prove it is censored. Not an anecdotal example of singular censorship, but broad consistent censorship.


    Please feel free to view our previous discussions.
    I am not looking through 1446 ****ing posts to find your weak-assed evidence. If you want me to take your point seriously, you will repost your evidence.


    You may feel cornered or intimidated by me or whatever it is going through your mind right now, but there really is no need.
    Not at all, I know I am right. The Bush Democracy Agenda is completely 10,000% vindicated with current events. Current events have the democratization of Iraq as both a model and an inspiration for what they are now about.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 02-05-11 at 01:09 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Not being direct sponsors of terrorism shouldn't be noteworthy but in today's Muslim world it seems that it is.

    Poverty is not exclusive to Muslim run countries but contemporary terrorism is.
    No, there are terrorist groups in non-Muslim countries that have the same problems with poverty and a weak state. Uganda has the Lord's Resistance Army, Sri Lanka had the Tamil Tigers until recently, etc. Depending on your definition of what a "terrorist" is, we can expand it out further. Haiti has gangs of thugs that roam the streets, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    I have visited some extremely poor areas of the world, as many of us have, and felt absolutely safe, and none of the people I've seen would have thought of attaching a bomb to their bodies and detonating themselves in order to murder innocent people.
    I think you'd probably feel absolutely safe in most Arab countries too. How many of them are you at serious risk of being the victim of a terrorist attack? Gaza, Yemen, Iraq, maybe the Hezbollah-controlled part of Lebanon (although I doubt it even there). That's about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    Only Muslims do that. According to this poverty theory the Great Depression would have become the Killing Fields.
    The US never had a weak state during the Great Depression though. You need BOTH of those components for a country to become a breeding ground for terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    And of course all Muslim run countries are weak states.
    What I mean by a "weak state" is a country where the government is barely in control of large swaths of land, and/or where there is very little rule of law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    The problem is cultural, and Islam and its leaders create the culture.
    Well you can't very easily change their religion, so I'm not sure what the point of this line of thinking is, other than to spread prejudice. Let's focus on things that can actually be changed, like poverty and state structure.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-05-11 at 01:05 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Moderator's Warning:
    Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime Some of you are getting overly aggressive and bordering on personal attacks. I advise calm. Anytime is fine, as long as it starts right now.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No, there are terrorist groups in non-Muslim countries that have the same problems with poverty and a weak state. Uganda has the Lord's Resistance Army, Sri Lanka had the Tamil Tigers until recently, etc. Depending on your definition of what a "terrorist" is, we can expand it out further. Haiti has gangs of thugs that roam the streets, etc.


    The problem with simple formulas such as these are that they are simple. Life is much more complex than that and while reducing such complexities to such an easy formula may be comforting due to the fact it provides such easy answers, they really don't explain the root cause of terrorism.

    Great Britain is hardly a failed state, yet it is now exporting terrorism. In addition, the terrorism is being formented in Universities among other places, which are not exacly examples of abject poverty and hopelesness. Your simple formula does not apply because it does not address all the OTHER reasons ideology spreads.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    The problem with simple formulas such as these are that they are simple. Life is much more complex than that and while reducing such complexities to such an easy formula may be comforting due to the fact it provides such easy answers, they really don't explain the root cause of terrorism.

    Great Britain is hardly a failed state, yet it is now exporting terrorism. In addition, the terrorism is being formented in Universities among other places, which are not exacly examples of abject poverty and hopelesness. Your simple formula does not apply because it does not address all the OTHER reasons ideology spreads.
    I'm talking about widespread, chronic problems with terrorism - not a handful of nuts in London. Great Britain certainly does not face the same problems with terrorism as, say, Yemen does. Same thing with university-educated terrorists...I'm not talking about a few smart guys that want to stage some spectacular attack that will end up on CNN. I'm talking about your average terrorist with a vague sense of anger who manages to kill maybe 5 people. Those kind of people are not bred in universities, they come from places like Yemen or Gaza...desperately poor societies where people have little hope for a better life, but where the state isn't strong enough to stop them from becoming terrorists.

    If we reduced poverty and strengthened states, would that eliminate all terrorism? Of course not. There will always be random sociopaths and extremists. But it would eliminate the breeding grounds for them.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No, there are terrorist groups in non-Muslim countries that have the same problems with poverty and a weak state. Uganda has the Lord's Resistance Army, Sri Lanka had the Tamil Tigers until recently, etc. Depending on your definition of what a "terrorist" is, we can expand it out further. Haiti has gangs of thugs that roam the streets, etc.
    Yes, if we want to compare what's going on in the Muslim world with gangs roaming African streets then we can do that, and they should expect the appropriate feedback. I doubt Muslims would appreciate the comparison but I'll not deny it is there. Much of the problems with Islamic terrorism however is that is not restricted to the streets of any certain city or country but is international in its scope. Thus Denmark, Australia, and many countries in between will be effected
    I think you'd probably feel absolutely safe in most Arab countries too. How many of them are you at serious risk of being the victim of a terrorist attack? Gaza, Yemen, Iraq, maybe the Hezbollah-controlled part of Lebanon (although I doubt it even there). That's about it.
    Perhaps. I don't believe for a second that all Muslims are terrorists and that most would be very hospitable people. The few I've met have been very gracious, but that also goes for 90% of the people I've met in this world. Our concerns must be focused on those who are terrorists, and those who support them. Those who want to live in peace in a better world must unite somehow against modern terrorism, and it shouldn't matter what religion we belong to, political party or the colour of our skins. We can see from 9/11 that everyone is effected by Islamic terrorists and its results are not exclusive to any one group.


    The US never had a weak state during the Great Depression though. You need BOTH of those components for a country to become a breeding ground for terrorists.
    Point well taken.

    What I mean by a "weak state" is a country where the government is barely in control of large swaths of land, and where there is very little rule of law.
    And one also that lacks basic human rights - freedom of expression, religion, etc.
    Well you can't very easily change their religion, so I'm not sure what the point of this line of thinking is, other than to spread prejudice.
    I've no interest in changing their religion, I'm more interested in allowing freedom from religion, and the freedom of other religions to reside within Islamic states. To allow more freedom of expression, less censorship, fatwahs, and so on. When Muslims are at peace, as they have been for many centuries, they are a threat to no one, and no one is a threat to them. We are indifferent to Muslims as we are to any pother group. But their collective character has changed over the past few decades and that should be a concern to everyone.

    And as to your charge of my spreading prejudice, it is not Christians, Jews, Agnostics, or Buddhists who are threatening the lives of others if they dare criticize their beliefs. That threat is only coming from the Islamists, and it is they who will support their religion over the rights of others. We see that in the media every day. If you are sincere in seeking out prejudice you need look no further than the Islamists themselves.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm talking about widespread, chronic problems with terrorism - not a handful of nuts in London. Great Britain certainly does not face the same problems with terrorism as, say, Yemen does. Same thing with university-educated terrorists...I'm not talking about a few smart guys that want to stage some spectacular attack that will end up on CNN. I'm talking about your average terrorist with a vague sense of anger who manages to kill maybe 5 people. Those kind of people are not bred in universities, they come from places like Yemen or Gaza...desperately poor societies where people have little hope for a better life, but where the state isn't strong enough to stop them from becoming terrorists.

    If we reduced poverty and strengthened states, would that eliminate all terrorism? Of course not. There will always be random sociopaths and extremists. But it would eliminate the breeding grounds for them.
    But there are far more than a 'handful of nuts' in London or any other major European city. Polls results are widely available which show a great many Muslims sympathize with Sharia law as well as terrorists. And we can see that many non Muslims search for any possible prejudices against Muslims while ignoring those wide spread prejudices openly displayed by Muslims. As well, as we can see on this very thread, there are non Musllims who are against Muslims having the opportunity to live in democratic surroundings. They will consign them to dictatorships as though they deserve no better.

    And I rather doubt Yemen or Gaza is doing much to control terrorism. The "martyrs" are often being celebrated.

    All Muslims states are weak. It just comes with the territory.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I think you'd probably feel absolutely safe in most Arab countries too.
    Journalists attacked by mobs, detained in Cairo - Yahoo! News

    My Way News - UN to evacuate staff from Egypt

    you strike me, sir, as a quite knowledgeable individual

    and i can't recall ever having seen you demean yourself by going personal

    in my opinion, you argue too much out of your head, out of your knowledge base, using logical constructs put together in your thought

    reality and logic aren't often the same

    you should observe more and rationalize less, in my respectful opinion

    stay up

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    You are a fear-monger claiming that since there is a religious component and background to the ruling coalition, that it must devolve to something like Iran's situation.
    The religious conservative nature of the key players is going to definitely effect the state of the Iraqi democracy. People like maliki support a pro-Islamic agenda and will definitely seek to implement reforms accordingly. That is a repressive implementation of Democracy which does not seek to address freedom of minorities or the sexes as we are already well aware of in our experience of the Middle East and religion/politics to begin with.

    To make matters worse, one of the major blocs in parliament is spearheaded by Moqtada who is responsible for the deaths of US forces in Iraq when they clashed with the Mehdi army. The man is a puppet for Iran and even seeks the status of Ayatollah. His poisonous presence in parliament will influence what Maliki attempts to implement throughout his administration.

    The FACTS are that even though there is the religious component, human rights and Bill of Rights style rights are enshrined their constitution and is put into practice.
    Its not just a "religious component". Religion is dominant. And the human rights bills can be enshrined into rock for all i care. While the situation is better than under Saddam, they are far from a model Democracy with a model implementation of these rights.

    Bull****. You are applying western notions to an Islamic Democracy. It does NOT invalidate Iraq's Democracy as a model to other Islamic countries.
    There is nothing western about secularism. Infact, you can find it all over the ME.

    You make a horrible assertion by saying Democracy and an Islamic Democracy is the same thing. An Islamic Democracy is made to appease the main religion and isn't based on the values of freedom because by nature Islam purports that one must live a certain way and the state usually enforces laws to protect this way of life. It is usually a patriarchal system that is based around two different sets of legal systems for Muslims and non-Muslims. It has nothing to do with "Democracy". It is NOT the system that America should be advertising. There is nothing "model" about it.


    Not incomparable. You are setting an unachievable standard for a 5 year old Democracy. 7 years ago it was a despicable, I mean truly despicable, dictatorship. Now it is a Democracy doing very well. Yes, there is still a long way to go, but as young as it is, it inspires Democracy through the Arab world. You keep claiming it does not and you are simply wrong.
    It still has horrible human rights abuses and censorship of political debate that insults government institutions is still in place.


    Prove it is censored. Not an anecdotal example of singular censorship, but broad consistent censorship.


    I am not looking through 1446 ****ing posts to find your weak-assed evidence. If you want me to take your point seriously, you will repost your evidence.
    Your not looking hard enough, and here is another link for you to deliberately ignore.

    Iraq book ban raises fears of free speech clampdown


    Not at all, I know I am right. The Bush Democracy Agenda is completely 10,000% vindicated with current events. Current events have the democratization of Iraq as both a model and an inspiration for what they are now about.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    The religious conservative nature of the key players is going to definitely effect the state of the Iraqi democracy. People like maliki support a pro-Islamic agenda and will definitely seek to implement reforms accordingly. That is a repressive implementation of Democracy which does not seek to address freedom of minorities or the sexes as we are already well aware of in our experience of the Middle East and religion/politics to begin with.

    To make matters worse, one of the major blocs in parliament is spearheaded by Moqtada who is responsible for the deaths of US forces in Iraq when they clashed with the Mehdi army. The man is a puppet for Iran and even seeks the status of Ayatollah. His poisonous presence in parliament will influence what Maliki attempts to implement throughout his administration.

    Its not just a "religious component". Religion is dominant. And the human rights bills can be enshrined into rock for all i care. While the situation is better than under Saddam, they are far from a model Democracy with a model implementation of these rights.
    You have no idea what Maliki supports nor how he might try to change the government. They have these rights. The rest of the ME does not. There is strong support for Islamic parties, which is no surprise. They have heavy influence in the government, which is also no surprise. Such will be the case in any ME democracy. It does not make those countries non-democratic.

    There is nothing western about secularism. Infact, you can find it all over the ME.
    Some parties in Iraq are secular. Some are part of the ruling coalition. The Kurds are fairly secular. Allawi's party is fairly secular. Any ME democracy is going to have a mix of secular and religious political parties. This does not invalidate the democracy.

    You make a horrible assertion by saying Democracy and an Islamic Democracy is the same thing. An Islamic Democracy is made to appease the main religion and isn't based on the values of freedom because by nature Islam purports that one must live a certain way and the state usually enforces laws to protect this way of life. It is usually a patriarchal system that is based around two different sets of legal systems for Muslims and non-Muslims. It has nothing to do with "Democracy". It is NOT the system that America should be advertising. There is nothing "model" about it.
    When I say Islamic Democracy, I do not mean Iran's form of democracy; I do not mean that it is officially termed an Islamic Democracy. I used the wrong term. What I mean, by corollary, is the same as calling the US government a Christian Democracy. One of the major parties has a major component that is explicitly Christian and thinks Christian values should be used to legislate. They ban and select books (Texas). They legislate behavior. Their involvement in the US government does not make our government a Christian Republic. We still have freedom of religion and freedom of expression, even when this party is in power. Likewise, in Iraq.


    It still has horrible human rights abuses and censorship of political debate that insults government institutions is still in place.
    We had slavery for 70 years. We have Civil Rights problems for 175 years. Democracies evolve.


    Your not looking hard enough, and here is another link for you to deliberately ignore.

    Iraq book ban raises fears of free speech clampdown
    Interesting. I note that people are publicly opposing this. That backs up my case. Try again.

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