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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    For that matter...who can count on the US? Agreeing to disclose UK nuke info to the Russians? WTF???
    Well there'll have to be a new President for sure.

    WTF?

    Win The Future?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It takes time for a democratic society to mature. Saddam has only been gone for 7 years. It's took The United States 12 years to create a constitution, that would be ratified by the states and the colonists didn't have to worry about assassinations, or IED's every 15 minutes.
    You can call Iraq a model once it actually gets to that stage of its Democracy then.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    You can call Iraq a model once it actually gets to that stage of its Democracy then.
    They are, for Christ's sake. They have a ratified constitution.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    They are, for Christ's sake. They have a ratified constitution.
    Ratified constitution does not make a country a democracy any more then the ability to speak makes one intelligent...

    Even North Korea has a constitution.

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    Post Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Iraq's government type is not an Islamic Republic. It is a Parliamentary Democracy. Nor are they repressive. Your assumptions about Iraq are wrong. Here is a list of the political parties in Iraq.
    I didn't say it was an Islamic Republic, but the figureheads of the coalition are ideologically conservative and there fundamental beliefs are against the ones America attempted to establish in Iraq. Maliki and his ilk have no interest in furthering Democracy. One of the important shiite members of the coalition are practicing to become an Ayatollah. It speaks volumes.

    You keep calling it a C-grade Democracy with no supporting evidence. Rather it is a young democracy after decades of authoritarian rule. Your expectations are unrealistic.
    Ive given you plenty of evidence. If my expectations are unrealistic, do you mean to say that it is a 3rd grade Democracy? You would do well to just accept the truth.

    Judging from the members of the current coalition, dont expect leaps of faith in Democratic values or freedoms. I suspect it will get no better. It may change in terms of stability but fundamentally it will be no different to any other Arab democracy that works on pillars of superstition, taboos and religious beliefs that run counter to the beliefs of the minorities.

    Yes...and? Read above. Ive emboldened it for you. Thats a pathetic excuse to label Iraq a model Democracy.

    Compared the the US growth rate. Iraq has grown more than the US for the past three years and grew 4.5% last year in the midst of the global recession.
    It also grew a huge amount in 2005. But the country is in financial ruin and with the massive stipends it relies on from the US it couldn't possibly shrink further, but the country is expected to experience a declining rate of growth that isnt suitable for a developing nation.

    When you are wrong, you are wrong. You should man up to the fact that you have reached the wrong conclusion about Iraq.
    I think its time you just accept America failed in Iraq and lives where lost and money spent in a war that could have been used in areas that they are needed more, like in Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Ratified constitution does not make a country a democracy any more then the ability to speak makes one intelligent...

    Even North Korea has a constitution.
    Sure, I know that, but that was the criteria he specified.

    Of course, Iraq has much more than just a ratified constitution and have held independent and un-corrupted elections several times electing it's Parliamentarians. It also has established Ministries and a bureaucracy, civil servants, and are taking care of their people. Development is proceeding.

    It is a Democracy.

    Given Egypt's situation, it is valuable to look at how Iraq drafted and ratified it's constitution, by forming the Transitional Government

    Articles 60 - 62 relate to the creation of the Constitution:
    Article 60.

    The National Assembly shall write a draft of the permanent constitution of Iraq. This Assembly shall carry out this responsibility in part by encouraging debate on the constitution through regular general public meetings in all parts of Iraq and through the media, and receiving proposals from the citizens of Iraq as it writes the constitution.

    Article 61.

    (A) The National Assembly shall write the draft of the permanent constitution by no later than 15 August 2005.

    (B) The draft permanent constitution shall be presented to the Iraqi people for approval in a general referendum to be held no later than 15 October 2005. In the period leading up to the referendum, the draft constitution shall be published and widely distributed to encourage a public debate about it among the people.

    (C) The general referendum will be successful and the draft constitution ratified if a majority of the voters in Iraq approve and if two-thirds of the voters in three or more governorates do not reject it.

    (D) If the permanent constitution is approved in the referendum, elections for a permanent government shall be held no later than 15 December 2005 and the new government shall assume office no later than 31 December 2005.

    (E) If the referendum rejects the draft permanent constitution, the National Assembly shall be dissolved. Elections for a new National Assembly shall be held no later than 15 December 2005. The new National Assembly and new Iraqi Transitional Government shall then assume office no later than 31 December 2005, and shall continue to operate under this Law, except that the final deadlines for preparing a new draft may be changed to make it possible to draft a permanent constitution within a period not to exceed one year. The new National Assembly shall be entrusted with writing another draft permanent constitution.

    (F) If necessary, the president of the National Assembly, with the agreement of a majority of the members’ votes, may certify to the Presidency Council no later than 1 August 2005 that there is a need for additional time to complete the writing of the draft constitution. The Presidency Council shall then extend the deadline for writing the draft constitution for only six months. This deadline may not be extended again.

    (G) If the National Assembly does not complete writing the draft permanent constitution by 15 August 2005 and does not request extension of the deadline in Article 61(D) above, the provisions of Article 61(E), above, shall be applied.

    Article 62.

    This law shall remain in effect until the permanent constitution is issued and the new Iraqi government is formed in accordance with it.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    I didn't say it was an Islamic Republic, but the figureheads of the coalition are ideologically conservative and there fundamental beliefs are against the ones America attempted to establish in Iraq. Maliki and his ilk have no interest in furthering Democracy. One of the important shiite members of the coalition are practicing to become an Ayatollah. It speaks volumes.
    ideologically conservative: so what? We've got kooks in America too, on both sides of the aisle.

    [their] fundamental beliefs are against the ones America attempted to establish in Iraq: not at all. We established legal human rights in Iraq. Bill of Rights kinds of stuff. Are there violations? Sure. Just like here in the US.

    Iraq's Democracy is not going to be like America's Democracy, but that does not mean it is not a successful Democracy.

    Ive given you plenty of evidence.
    Where is this evidence?

    but the country is expected to experience a declining rate of growth that isnt suitable for a developing nation.
    Are you pulling this out of your unwashed ass, too? Evidence?

    I think its time you just accept America failed in Iraq and lives where lost and money spent in a war that could have been used in areas that they are needed more, like in Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
    Bollocks.

  8. #1438
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The most radical are not the poor.

    The commonality is Islam.
    You have a good point, but you have to consider something with this. The "intellectual" of Islam is the string puller who insists that Allah is the only way and they are the ones who continue to ratchet up the rhetoric. They were the original members of the Brotherhood in Egypt that leaned on Sayyid Qutb's wisdom and facilitated the assassination of Sadat. They were the mistaken supporters of Khomeini in Iran. They are the ones that developed the Mujahideen in Sunni schools so that they could combat Khomeini's Shia radicalism and later fight the Soviets in Afghanistan and then eventually call themselves "students" (Tali-ban).

    But none of the intellectuals use their wealth or religious education to strap bombs to their chests. They seek the poor to become the Mujahideen. They seek the poor in Palestine to commit murder/suicide. They seek the ignorant masses to gather moral support for his rhetoric. They seek the poor and convince them that salvation and glorified escape is just a violent act away.

    Think about it in our local terms. The economic and educational situation in the South of our country is generally less than the North. It's in the South where you will find most of your religious nuts, hillbillies, and radical churches. The good 'ole country boy is generally from a southern state.

    The poor in the Middle East are the ones who have no education, no opportunities, and no future. Give them a sermon and a bomb and they, all of a sudden, have a purpose. Of course, if the poor are ever given an opportunity to educate and prosper then the intellectual begins to lose his flock. No one, who has a life, is so willing to dispose of it so quickly.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-05-11 at 11:08 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    For that matter...who can count on the US? Agreeing to disclose UK nuke info to the Russians? WTF???
    And people pretend that Wikileaks isn't obsessed with tearing at America and thereby wrecking the free world. The man's a trader to the West.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-05-11 at 11:00 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The man's a trader to the West.
    I think the West (Britain, at least) can see who has been trading who to whom.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

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