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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Since Obama now supports the aspirations of the people of Egypt, can anyone tell me why Obama didn't support the aspirations of the people of Iran in their attempted Green Revolution that was put down by force? There is an apparent inconsistency in Obama's actions. Can the inconsistency be reconciled?
    Yes. We have influence with the government and the military of Egypt, and therefore have some power to encourage them to do the right thing and to discourage violence. We have no such influence with Iran, and therefore our support will be ignored at best, or used as evidence of an American conspiracy at worst.

    Furthermore, we had to be worried about how our actions would be perceived if the Iranian government survived, as it did. In the case of Egypt, we need not worry because it's obvious that Mubarak is done for.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Since Obama now supports the aspirations of the people of Egypt, can anyone tell me why Obama didn't support the aspirations of the people of Iran in their attempted Green Revolution that was put down by force? There is an apparent inconsistency in Obama's actions. Can the inconsistency be reconciled?
    Or.... why isnt he calling for the ouster of the country next door, the Leader of Sudan whom has governed over a genocide in the south & Darfur?

    This guy is way worse than anything Mubarak ever did but we've never heard a peep from the dear leader on this.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank View Post
    Ohhh big tough guy Obama trying to tell the leader of another country to step down. Does anyone honestly think that this Mubarek Ex- Military man, thug, dictator is going to jump for this panty waist of a president, he is probably going to dig his heels in even deeper for everytime Obama makes another demand he resign, if you were just thrown under the bus by your ally wouldnt you?. Mubarek will stay until he is ready to go on his own terms probably in September when he says he will. That seems to be a fair amount of time for parties to organize for an election if that is indeed what he has in mind.
    The protesters don't trust him to keep his word, and I don't blame them. He could try to rig the elections after the protests died down. If they want him to leave now, I certainly understand their wishes. Let some other transitional figure be in charge until they can organize elections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank
    In any event is anyone afraid of Obama? The Iranians are laughing at him, the Saudis are shaking there heads along with the Red Chinese to whom he constantly bows down to.
    The Iranians are probably terrified that all the unrest in the Arab world will spread eastward; their government is not exactly on solid ground itself.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank View Post
    Or.... why isnt he calling for the ouster of the country next door, the Leader of Sudan whom has governed over a genocide in the south & Darfur?

    This guy is way worse than anything Mubarak ever did but we've never heard a peep from the dear leader on this.
    Because A) we're trying to discourage Bashir from interfering with the South Sudanese independence, and B) we aren't going to stir up trouble where none exists. If the Egyptian people hadn't staged mass protests against Mubarak, I'm quite sure Obama would be content to continue having him in power. So far, the Sudan has only seen minor protests. If the people of the Sudan stage huge protests on the scale of what you're seeing in Cairo, it's quite possible that Obama WILL tighten the screws on Bashir.

    If they don't, it would be wise to continue our policy of rapprochement with the Sudan, as long as they allow South Sudan (and probably Darfur) to break away.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-05-11 at 01:07 AM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Since Obama now supports the aspirations of the people of Egypt, can anyone tell me why Obama didn't support the aspirations of the people of Iran in their attempted Green Revolution that was put down by force? There is an apparent inconsistency in Obama's actions. Can the inconsistency be reconciled?
    The administration has bobbled Iran badly IMO.
    He first tried to butter them up- dropping the Bush press for Intl sanctions and letting them off the hook on Nukes.
    Though this has now been somewhat rectified. Just more time wasted.
    Everyone is basically letting Iran play delay until it's too late.
    Everyone knows the game and the game is Lost/over.
    Iran will have Nukes.

    Supporting the Green Revolution would have discredited the movement as 'Foreign based' (or zio-plot). You know the routine.
    So Admins have to play it cool sometimes. Playing it under the table.

    But on Iran in General, Obama hasn't done well IMO. Though I'm not sure what woud have made an appreciable difference with the Mullahs calling the shots and Mahdi-coming AhmadInJihad doing the dirty work.
    Probably would have just meant more jailed and dead freedom demonstrators.

    Iran's leaders are willing to do anything to stay in power- while Egypt's leader is old and relatively soft.
    He's through at 82 and he knows it.
    Oh.. and too many Foreign Cameramen in Cairo vs Tehran.
    Last edited by mbig; 02-05-11 at 01:29 AM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    You know what? You could be right. After Iran revolted (against a brutal dictator supported by the USA), the immediate aftermath left a power vacuum in which an expelled ayatolah was able to swoop in from Europe and install himself as the new dictator. So what? The people accepted him with open arms. He didn't turn out to be such a good deal in the long run, but if they want to implement another change, the people themselves will have to do so. It must be the choice of the people.

    If Egypt ends up with a government run by the Muslim Brotherhood, the peace treaty with Israel is thrown out the window, and sharia law installed, then so be it. It's the people's choice. They will have to live with Mubarak's replacement, for better or worse, just as those in Iran have done. Or perhaps they will find the freedom and democracy they crave. Either way, they deserve the chance to have a real say in the way their country is run.

    You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. The people of every country have the right to freedom and liberty, not just the people of countries whose governments we d not support. THAT is hypocrisy. If they chose badly for themselves then they will have grown wiser as a people and a nation, and they'll just have to do it all over again.

    But under no circumstance should any American wish for these brave attempts to secure freedom for themselves to fail because it's not in our interests for them to be free.

    Our government is clearly pro-demonstrators, and has done all it can do to encourage Mubarak to step down immediately without going public with such a demand, therefore scaring the collective pants off of our other ME allied dictators in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Jordan.
    But, is it really the, "people's choice"? Or, is that what they got stuck with, because the latest, "uprising for freedom and democracy", was just a sham to grab power?

    I'm not sold on the beautifulness of this uprising, sorry.

    I think, in the long run, that it will end up making alotta peoples's lives a living nightmare and I'm not just talking about Egyptians.

    People have mentioned American interests numerous times in this thread. One of our, "interests", are the lives of American kids that will lose their lives fighting a very bloddy war against an Islamist army that is bent on world domination.

    One of the German civilians that was forced to tour the death camp at Buchenwald dropped to her knees after the tour and cried, "We were lied to!". I think the United States has a responsibility to it's citizens, as well as the citizens of the world that the regime that replaces Mubarack isn't, "lieing to us".

    Personally, I think the, "naw, that ain't gonna happen", crowd is living in la-la land. I hope I'm wrong, but so far, there's no evidence to suggest that I am. Even Hitler denounced the strong arm tactics of the SA, murdered Ernst Rhom and sought a legal, constitutional path to dictatorship.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Since Obama now supports the aspirations of the people of Egypt, can anyone tell me why Obama didn't support the aspirations of the people of Iran in their attempted Green Revolution that was put down by force? There is an apparent inconsistency in Obama's actions. Can the inconsistency be reconciled?
    Because Obama has a soft spot for radical Islamists (in this case the Iranians) as evidenced by his behavior from day one in the attempted closing of Gitmo, followed by his kinder & gentler rules of engagement forced upon our troops in Afghanistan along with a dated withdrawel, followed by the hush hush (shh..it wasnt Jihad) killings by Major Hasan at Fort Hood.... I could go on & on... but I'm sure you get the point.

    Obama likes radicals because he is one & has hung out with them most of his life.

    He has no critisizm for Dictators like Ahmadinjad who brutally put down the democracy movement in Iran, along with supplying IEDs to the Taliban.

    No critisizm for Bashir in Sudan who committed genocide in his country

    No critisizm for Hamas (A wing of the Brotherhood) who after there election, killed & threw the oppostion out of the country then fired rockets at Israel.

    He has talks with the Muslim brotherhood before the overthrow attemp in Egypt

    All Radical Islamists

    Then we look at Israel & Britain.... two of our biggest allies when Obama came to office and he has totally thrown these two under the bus

    Israel in favor of Hamas, Britain in Favor of Russia

    He also has hardly a word for the democratically elected government of Lebanon whom was recently deposed by Hezzbolah.

    Anyone see a pattern here?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Personally, I say we let them work it out. Maybe it all works out for the best and they have a peaceful transition and democracy. OR...they still have no jobs because their country has little outside of the toruism industry, they end up in flames, and become a fundamentalist state. Either way...they kill each other off, have at it. They become a fundamentalist state and kill off the liberals and put women back in burkas, well...thats 'democracy' after all...isnt it? They attack our allies, well..we should come to their aid as quickly as we would France or England and turn the place into a great big giant smoking hole.
    That's the problem, they're not going to be satisfied with just killing each other. They're going to want to kill some Israelis, Americans and Brits, too. Because that real danger exists, I think we are well within our rights to have a say in who's running the show.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    The administration has bobbled Iran badly IMO.
    He first tried to butter them up- dropping the Bush press for Intl sanctions and letting them off the hook on Nukes.
    Though this has now been somewhat rectified. Just more time wasted.
    Everyone is basically letting Iran play delay until it's too late.
    Everyone knows the game and the game is Lost/over.
    Iran will have Nukes.

    Supporting the Green Revolution would have discredited the movement as 'Foreign based' (or zio-plot). You know the routine.
    So Admins have to play it cool sometimes. Playing it under the table.

    But on Iran in General, Obama hasn't done well IMO. Though I'm not sure what woud have made an appreciable difference with the Mullahs calling the shots and Mahdi-coming AhmadInJihad doing the dirty work.
    Probably would have just meant more jailed and dead freedom demonstrators.

    Iran's leaders are willing to do anything to stay in power- while Egypt's leader is old and relatively soft.
    He's through at 82 and he knows it.
    Oh.. and too many Foreign Camera men in Cairo vs Tehran.

    Very good post. Do you play chess? Obama doesn't. He doesn't even know how to play checkers. That's part of the gap that shouldn't exist in the cultural background of a president of the US.

    Obama could have acted like Machiavelli instead of Captain Kangaroo. What cannot be done directly can be done indirectly. It requires the ability to play chess and to out think your opponent by several steps ahead.

    Obama does not know or understand his foreign enemies. Thus, he can never out think them.

    If one understands one's enemy it is possible to use his weaknesses against him. It would have been straight forward to operate on several different levels to instill fear into the hearts of the mullahs. One only negotiates when compelled to do so for fear of the magnitude of the hurt your opponent can put on you.

    The Theocrats in Iran have a number of weaknesses that could have been exploited. But Obama allowed the moment to pass. Now it is too late. Besides, the night of the long knives is coming.

    Obama could have used this video to transfix the world. 55 seconds in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkCv9ZNweWs

    He could have had American client states invoke a special meeting of the UN Security Council. He could have had African and Latin American countries up in arms leading the charge. He could have acted sub rosa.

    A bare majority of Iranians are ethnically Persian. There is much unrest among the Iranian Kurds, the Iranian Baluchis and the Iranian Arabs of oil rich Iranian Khuzestan next door to Iraq. He could have allowed the MEK to infiltrate. Iran imports gasoline because it can't refine enough for its own use.

    He could have done a number of things. But Obama and his foreign policy staff were too inexperienced.

    Now Obama is frozen into inaction because people like me will use any mistake he makes to destroy his ideology. He doesn't know how to play chess.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yank View Post
    Because Obama has a soft spot for radical Islamists (in this case the Iranians) as evidenced by his behavior from day one in the attempted closing of Gitmo, followed by his kinder & gentler rules of engagement forced upon our troops in Afghanistan along with a dated withdrawel, followed by the hush hush (shh..it wasnt Jihad) killings by Major Hasan at Fort Hood.... I could go on & on... but I'm sure you get the point.

    Obama likes radicals because he is one & has hung out with them most of his life.

    He has no critisizm for Dictators like Ahmadinjad who brutally put down the democracy movement in Iran, along with supplying IEDs to the Taliban.

    No critisizm for Bashir in Sudan who committed genocide in his country

    No critisizm for Hamas (A wing of the Brotherhood) who after there election, killed & threw the oppostion out of the country then fired rockets at Israel.

    He has talks with the Muslim brotherhood before the overthrow attemp in Egypt

    All Radical Islamists

    Then we look at Israel & Britain.... two of our biggest allies when Obama came to office and he has totally thrown these two under the bus

    Israel in favor of Hamas, Britain in Favor of Russia

    He also has hardly a word for the democratically elected government of Lebanon whom was recently deposed by Hezzbolah.

    Anyone see a pattern here?

    Good post. Obama isn't a Muslim, but he is an Islamophile. Because of the positive early experiences in his life surrounded by Islam he is well disposed toward them. Because of the radical anti-Western ideology of his mother Obama is estranged and alienated from at least fifty percent of the people over whom he rules.

    Obama is not able to even pretend to express solidarity with us because he does not understand or relate to us. To Obama we are the Other. The Stranger. L' Etrange. To Obama we are livestock to be milked and ultimately consumed.

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