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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    I noticed that today there were a lot more women in the crowds. I suppose that our progressive handlers of this uprising are listening to Fox News and made the correction to make this look like a real public effort.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    With all due respect, this is not the way to conduct a debate.
    Whatever, dude. You can read. Here, I'll quote.

    Ethics

    Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.[9][10]

    Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[4] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason:[11][dubious discuss]

    "Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empary of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me. For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the hideousness of your present belief. Peace be upon you and the blessings of God!"
    Early proto-environmentalist treatises were written in Arabic by al-Kindi, al-Razi, Ibn Al-Jazzar, al-Tamimi, al-Masihi, Avicenna, Ali ibn Ridwan, Abd-el-latif, and Ibn al-Nafis. Their works covered a number of subjects related to pollution such as air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination, and municipal solid waste mishandling.[12] Cordoba, al-Andalus also had the first waste containers and waste disposal facilities for litter collection.[13]
    Last edited by reefedjib; 02-04-11 at 04:04 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    When Bush realized US Foreign Policy had to change to the Middle East, he also realized the only counter-strategy to terrorism and fundamentalism is Democracy.

    Democracy is the antidote to fundamentalism.
    Is that why he doubled military aid to the Arab world?
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 02-04-11 at 03:56 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post

    I don't agree with your analysis. Long before the French Revolution there were seeds of democracy planted in European soil. The Age of Enlightenment in the 17th and 18th centuries created fertile soil that people like Locke, Rosseau and a host of other philosophers used to resurrect the ideal of democracy that was first born in Ancient Greece in the Era of Pericles and Solon.

    It was Enlightenment Europe that gave intellectual birth to the American Revolution. And it was French veterans who fought under Rochambeau during the American Revolution who took those revolutionary ideas back to Bourbon France where they simmered, and then exploded.

    OK, sure. No problems. The point here is that "seeds" were planted. Before Iraqi Freeedom where and what were the seeds? Before Tunisia where was the "enlightenment" for change? It's not like they are blind to the West and to all the prescriptions that have not only made us prosperous, but individually free to express and worship. Do you think Muslims across the region have religious freedom? Ask the Shia outside of Iraq and Iran what they think about that. Ask the non-Arab and Chrisitian victims in Sudan what they think. Ask any tribe within a Sunni government that question. What if this historical awakening and probably most important era in future's history is occurring right before your very eyes? America didn't become so great because it was too afraid to gamble and push so heavily upon our capacity to promote individual expression, creativity, and a basic human rights. Why then, do we insist that only keeping it and not promoting it elsewhere will result in our doom?



    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I will not address the notion that the consensus of a handful of elders in selecting a Caliph constitutes democracy. I don't feel the need.
    It's merely a base in which to show that they have the capacity for it.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Is that why he doubled military aid to the Arab world?
    Yes. At the same time he helped Saudi Arabia strengthen its fight against Al-Qaeda (and SA really went after them!) and influenced SA and other ME countries started limited reforms.

    Political Reform in Saudi Arabia

    The paper puts forth two main arguments, the first being that reform measures that have been introduced by the ruling establishment in since 2002 have resulted in an unprecedented degree of political dynamism in Saudi politics, a sustained political opening, and thus a higher degree of popular participation in Saudi politics. In addition, attempts to evaluate political reform in Saudi Arabia should take into account the particularity of the Saudi political system and thus refrain from making comparisons to other Arab countries. A parliament that is fully accountable and has real oversight powers cannot be expected in the short run. Hence, there should be an effort both to lower expectations, and devise more realistic ones that correspond with Saudi realities.
    Turning to reform measures introduced between 2002 and 2005, Hamzawy highlighted five major areas: the empowerment of the Shura (Consultative) council; the introduction of partial elections to municipal councils; the expansion of civil society; institutionalization of the national dialogue conference; and educational reforms.

    The Shura council is a 150-member body charged with advising the King and cabinet upon their request. Its empowerment took two forms, first by the modification of the body’s internal provisions to give members more autonomy in discussing matters, and second by its marked politicization.

    The introduction of partial municipal elections—despite the various limitations on the process including the exclusion of women—has served several purposes: The country’s first elections since the 1960s, they have reinvigorated the memory of elections and participation; the election campaigns attracted public attention. In addition, there has been considerable public debate in Saudi Arabia about the possibility of extending the election mechanism to other bodies such as the Shura councils or by making municipal elections fully rather than partially elected.

    The expansion of civil society has taken place through the legalization of various human rights organizations and professional syndicates, and the fact that elections to the boards of these bodies were permitted. Albeit limited, this expansion is generally relevant the Saudi context and more particularly because it presents an opening for underprivileged groups such as women and minorities.

    The institutionalization of national dialogue conferences—a government initiative which began in 2003 and consisted of regular meetings of diverse groups to discuss political reform issues—has been instrumental in expanding the Saudi public sphere. National dialogue conferences have actually been Saudi Arabia’s main venue for public debates on reform issues, and have been critical in educating the public.

    The issue of educational reform is particularly sensitive because it reflects the balance of power between royal family and the religious establishment. Between 2002 and 2005, a very limited number of reforms have been introduced to create a balance between religious and non-religious subjects in the curricula. There measures were, by in large, introduced hesitantly and reluctantly due to the fierce opposition by the religious establishment.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Obama's stance on Egypt is extremely significant, no matter what pundits think about the wane of US influence. But I agree that the freedom wave in the ME is larger than the president at this point. All part of the MASTER PLAN, instantiated by Bush, that you claim was invalidated by the left. I will say again that the left's hatred for Bush caused them to oppose the spread of freedom in the world. That's a complete invalidation of their own ideals. They have nothing to offer the world of value. The left is completely decrepit.

    The Democracy MASTER PLAN is alive and well and shaking the region on its own merits without our acquiescence. The freedom movement is set free and running on its own. We cannot stop it even if we wanted too.
    I once thought it was America's role in history to spread the ideal of individual liberty and democracy throughout the world by the power of its ideas. Then 9/11 happened. I agreed with Bush's Democracy Agenda as a response to 9/11.

    Then I discovered that the American left was prepared to sandbag the country and use the stuggle in Iraq for domestic political purposes. This has changed my entire view of what America's role in the world is. The left sought power by discrediting the Democracy Agenda and cannot now claim to be the advocate of the spread of individual liberty.

    I wish the people of the Arab world well. May they find freedom in whatever form they come upon it. But America no longer has a role in spreading democracy in the world. Many conservatives believe that individual liberty is in fact endangered in America itself. We have business at home.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Additionally:
    as I said previously in reiteration of Gardener's point, liberalism has to precede Liberal (or secular) Democracy.
    'Islamist Deomocracy' is a more tricky concept, perhaps an oxymoron.
    Some of the Arab Peninsula is ruled by Kings/Sheiks/Emirs, who are prosperous and happy.

    Transition for some places like the UAE would be much easier.. if they wanted it.
    Qatar is not close to democracy, yet this is the home of (mostly) Free and open al-jazeera.
    Hated by most Arab Tyrants.
    Is official democracy as pressing if you've got prosperity and can voice your opinion?
    Last edited by mbig; 02-04-11 at 04:08 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    OK, sure. No problems. The point here is that "seeds" were planted. Before Iraqi Freeedom where and what were the seeds? Before Tunisia where was the "enlightenment" for change? It's not like they are blind to the West and to all the prescriptions that have not only made us prosperous, but individually free to express and worship. Do you think Muslims across the region have religious freedom? Ask the Shia outside of Iraq and Iran what they think about that. Ask the non-Arab and Chrisitian victims in Sudan what they think. Ask any tribe within a Sunni government that question. What if this historical awakening and probably most important era in future's history is occurring right before your very eyes? America didn't become so great because it was too afraid to gamble and push so heavily upon our capacity to promote individual expression, creativity, and a basic human rights. Why then, do we insist that only keeping it and not promoting it elsewhere will result in our doom?





    It's merely a base in which to show that they have the capacity for it.
    Ten years ago I would have been joined to you at the hip intellectually. What changed? My perception of the perfidy of the American left. The struggle is at home. Not overseas.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Whatever, dude. You can read. Here, I'll quote.
    I am familiar with the flowering of Arab civilization. The flower was cut off by the Seljuk Turks, Mongols and Mamelukes. That garden has been dead for almost a thousand years.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    What are your thoughts about Afghanistan, its future, our influence and involvement, and Pakistan's sphere of influence?
    I have shifted my personal/professional study and focus on Arab culture (generally Middle Eastern) to Afghani (south Asia) since the beginning of December.

    Afghanistan is determined to be Afghanistan. Its history is its future. Because the exhausting cultural classes they have placed us in for the last 2 months, I believe that Marine and Army command (Mattis/Patreaus) have come to this conclusion. This entire country is made up of tribes that straddle every single border. They are far worse than Iraqis in terms of unity and far more capable of celebrating their frictions. But they are also, however, far more loyal to base tribal ideologies and traditions that appear to agree with each other (honor, duty, family, etc.). We have to acknowledge that "victory" in Afghanistan means a strong central Pashtun government that respects the "soveriegnty" of its ancient tribes within the territory (all of which are made up of people who do not consider themselves "Afghani.")

    This future very much relies upon current on going missions. General Patreaus asked General Mattis to produce Marine teams faster to replace Army and NATO teams since our role in Iraq finished. The Afghani military (ANA) and Afghani security forces (AFSN) are in the process of not only addressing the corruption they have within, but where there lines are drawn. We are up against a culture that has not traditionally had a military/police force working together and respecting their roles. They are responding very well to the Marine advisor teams and are exponentially requesting Marine teams. The British and other Nato Generals have come to Camp Lejeune to discover our training methods and how we are getting such positive responses.

    The biggest problem is corruption on the civilian side. Many of the Afghani forces are having to struggle to get their politicians and bureaucrats to pay them their salaries and to provide them their proper support (pay, feul, ammo, etc.) By the time it reaches them, much of their "support" has been stolen by individual butt holes who seek a more immediate personal gain. In the mean time, our ongoing efforts (military and NGO) to provide villages with technical support and educational opportunities (over 80 percent can't read and many of them have never even heard of 9/11) are having positive affect.

    Pakistan is just a big mess.

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