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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE=MSgt;1059264696...Before France, there was no democratic tradition in greater Europe either. How dare they have a beginning.


    Are you aware that the first Caliphate was democraticaly elected by the elders?...[/QUOTE]



    I don't agree with your analysis. Long before the French Revolution there were seeds of democracy planted in European soil. The Age of Enlightenment in the 17th and 18th centuries created fertile soil that people like Locke, Rosseau and a host of other philosophers used to resurrect the ideal of democracy that was first born in Ancient Greece in the Era of Pericles and Solon.

    It was Enlightenment Europe that gave intellectual birth to the American Revolution. And it was French veterans who fought under Rochambeau during the American Revolution who took those revolutionary ideas back to Bourbon France where they simmered, and then exploded.

    I will not address the notion that the consensus of a handful of elders in selecting a Caliph constitutes democracy. I don't feel the need.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    They promoted him and made him a chief of a 17 man team that is headed to Afghanistan for 365 to be imbedded within a certain Afghani force...somewhere.
    Tell him congrats on the promotion and the honor of looking after the men and leading the mission, not necessarily in that order!

    What are your thoughts about Afghanistan, its future, our influence and involvement, and Pakistan's sphere of influence?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    I think Obama is hanging on to the caboose. He is not the engineer of the Freedom Train. Bush tried that, and was eviscerated by the American left.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    + 1,000,000

    Damn, MSgt, when you're hot, you immolate those who have no vision!
    Self-immolation, jk, couldn't help it.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with Albert di Salvo. The road to democracy is riddled with pitfalls. In American-English tradition, those pitfalls were spread over the course of a thousand years, with increasingly democratic institutions (like Parliament) developing out of a increasingly democratic culture.

    I was thinking of France too, but as a negative example. The French Revolution was bloody and resulted in decades worth of dictatorships.
    Always like Msgt's posts, but I'm also inclined slightly to the Albert side.

    Democratic tradition didn't begin with the American or French Revolutions but with the Magna Carta.
    But as you say as well, 70 years is a ling time in the tech age.

    In fact, I have aid many times what started the Islamic hostility of the latter part of the last century was Arabs "turning on their TV sets" and realizing they were in fact horribly behind and backwards, shattering their self image.

    Now we have Part 2, the onset of Arab TV (jazeera, arabiya, etc) and the internet hooking them all up in information but no ability to voice it at home.

    The world moves forward, however bumpily.
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    Last edited by mbig; 02-04-11 at 03:51 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post


    I don't agree with your analysis. Long before the French Revolution there were seeds of democracy planted in European soil. The Age of Enlightenment in the 17th and 18th centuries created fertile soil that people like Locke, Rosseau and a host of other philosophers used to resurrect the ideal of democracy that was first born in Ancient Greece in the Era of Pericles and Solon.

    It was Enlightenment Europe that gave intellectual birth to the American Revolution. And it was French veterans who fought under Rochambeau during the American Revolution who took those revolutionary ideas back to Bourbon France where they simmered, and then exploded.

    I will not address the notion that the consensus of a handful of elders in selecting a Caliph constitutes democracy. I don't feel the need.
    Islamic ethics of individualism, liberalism, religious freedom, and freedom of speech predates The Age of Enlightenment. The soil is fertile.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    ...Democratic tradition didn't begin with the American or French Revolutions but with the Magna Carta...
    I guess that is a legitimate point. But I wonder where the reduction of the power of the King John over his Barons constitutes a democratic breakout. The Magna Carta was signed in the early 13th century. Things thereafter remained in stasis until the European enlightenment and the English Revolution. Please correct me if I am mistaken. I am happy to learn from someone like you.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    With all due respect, this is not the way to conduct a debate.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I think Obama is hanging on to the caboose. He is not the engineer of the Freedom Train. Bush tried that, and was eviscerated by the American left.
    Obama's stance on Egypt is extremely significant, no matter what pundits think about the wane of US influence. But I agree that the freedom wave in the ME is larger than the president at this point. All part of the MASTER PLAN, instantiated by Bush, that you claim was invalidated by the left. I will say again that the left's hatred for Bush caused them to oppose the spread of freedom in the world. That's a complete invalidation of their own ideals. They have nothing to offer the world of value. The left is completely decrepit.

    The Democracy MASTER PLAN is alive and well and shaking the region on its own merits without our acquiescence. The freedom movement is set free and running on its own. We cannot stop it even if we wanted too.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I guess that is a legitimate point. But I wonder where the reduction of the power of the King John over his Barons constitutes a democratic breakout. The Magna Carta was signed in the early 13th century. Things thereafter remained in stasis until the European enlightenment and the English Revolution. Please correct me if I am mistaken. I am happy to learn from someone like you.
    I thought it was Robin Hood. Damn.

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