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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #1351
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    1. There is no democratic tradition in the Arab world. None.
    .....Aaaaaaaand right here is where I cut you off because the rest of it merely seeks to defend this shallow idea of the world and the events that have have brought us to February 4, 2011. Before France, there was no democratic tradition in greater Europe either. How dare they have a beginning.


    Are you aware that the first Caliphate was democraticaly elected by the elders? Are you aware that every single "nation" in the Middle East has had a large base of support to create democracy since the beginning of European colonialism, but has been denied it, and that along the way too many of them began to turn towards "God" as the ultimate solution for their earthly salvation? - (This seperates the majority from the lost souls that merely wish to serve "God" at any cost.)

    You see, the reason there has been "no democratic tradition" in the Arab world is because since the age of modernism, Europeans ensured that democracy was a White Western thing while relying on the support of dictators, thugs, and religious leaders elsewhere in order to provide economic stability for their trades. Along came the Cold War and America gets stuck with the world they created as it battles a very immediate ideology war against a nuclear competitor. We maintained the idea of "stability" at any cost and shelved our own values when we saw it necessary (often mistaken for "easier.")

    To use the fact that there has been no Vermont or San Fransisco in the Middle East to assume that their destiny relies on oppression and control is not only short sighted, but absolutely racist and morally decrepit. The only question should be whether or not Sunni Arab Islam is compatible with Western democracy. We see it in Indonesia, but this is far removed from the heartland and they are hardly Sunni loyalists. We see it in Turkey, but they were converts and they are not Sunni Arabs in the heartland. Unlike Saudi Arabia, Egypt has a written history that pre-dates Islam too and are themselves victims of Arab colonialism. They too have every tool that Turkey had to create a democracy that respects religion, but draws a line.

    Let me put this in other terms. If you actually think that our security and the "stability" of the Middle East relies upon dictators and religious theocracies, I remind you of the long term relationships that the Shah of Iran and what Mubarak has produced. If we have any kind of immediate evironmental awareness about us at all, we should absolutely be able to identify that in Europe and in the U.S., the people will win in the end. The longer we disallow the people their voice in the Middle East, or merely pretend to support their modernists voices, we make the religious threat in the region worse and worse.

    I know what I'm talking about. When you sit on the toilet and ponder on who the smartest man in the world is.....relax....it's me.
    (<------ Yes, this is my "smilie" and nobody else can use it without express permission from Kelzie or the artist formerly known as GySgt.)
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-04-11 at 03:37 PM.

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  2. #1352
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    I'm inclined to agree with Albert di Salvo. The road to democracy is riddled with pitfalls. In American-English tradition, those pitfalls were spread over the course of a thousand years, with increasingly democratic institutions (like Parliament) developing out of a increasingly democratic culture.

    .....Aaaaaaaand right here is where I cut you off because the rest of it merely seeks to defend this shallow idea of the world and the events that have have brought us to February 4, 2011. Before France, there was no democratic tradition in greater Europe either. How dare they have a beginning.
    I was thinking of France too, but as a negative example. The French Revolution was bloody and resulted in decades worth of dictatorships.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 02-04-11 at 03:22 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  3. #1353
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Western democratic theory took a very long time to develop in fertile soil.

    It took the French 70 years to create a functioning "Western" democracy. Along the way they even elected an emporer. Perhaps Arabs can be given more than a few years before you **** on their on going efforts? Maybe your grandchildren will wonder about the Western generation that demanded that Arabs were nothing more than pawns in a dictator's game.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    or the artist formerly known as GySgt.
    Hey, where did that guy get off to anyway? Did he get ****canned from the Marine Corp, or something, for becoming a Liberal, or violating DADT?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Really? How ironic and racist. And they have the temerity to call themselves liberals. LIARS!



    Too late to matter. The artillery rounds were already downrange. The re-election of Bush in 2004 gave him the ability to finish his Democracy surgery in Iraq. Genesis had occurred before Obama entered office. I can well imagine that Bush's farewell letter to Obama stressed the importance of supporting revolutions, protest movements and democracy efforts throughout the ME, delicately done so as to minimize damage to our interests and alliances. It probably said that it is time we were on the side of the people.





    Revolution seems to be a prerequisite for transformation from autocracy to democracy. It may take a long time to (re)discover an idea in the world, but much less time for it to be retransmitted to other parts of the world. There are many examples of fine democracies generated in parts of the world with no "fertile soil".

    The fact that Egyptian authorities and protesters are talking about the importance of freedom of expression, assembly, protest, and yea, even revolution - as documented in our Declaration of Independence, is evidence that the liberal ideas supporting democracy are finding themselves in fertile soil.

    It may take 50 years, but the ball is rolling.

    I wish it were true. Obama has abandoned Bush's Democracy Agenda. This is what the Arab World believes:

    President Obama, say the 'D-Word' - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

    The Arab world may have democracy some day. But I suspect our children's children will be long dead by the time that happens. Anti-democratic forces are on the march throughout the world. China and Iran are authoritarian. Russia is less democratic as time passes. American influence and ideas have been so discredited that America is becoming irrelevant:

    Amid Arab protests, U.S. influence has waned

    I wish it weren't so.

  6. #1356
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    It took the French 70 years to create a functioning "Western" democracy. Along the way they even elected an emporer. Perhaps Arabs can be given more than a few years before you **** on their on going efforts? Maybe your grandchildren will wonder about the Western generation that demanded that Arabs were nothing more than pawns in a dictator's game.
    70 years is a long time, especially in the Technological Age. That information and products travel at exponentially faster speeds means that time no longer poses the same obstacle it did in previous centuries.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 02-04-11 at 03:28 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    I wish it were true. Obama has abandoned Bush's Democracy Agenda. This is what the Arab World believes:

    President Obama, say the 'D-Word' - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

    The Arab world may have democracy some day. But I suspect our children's children will be long dead by the time that happens. Anti-democratic forces are on the march throughout the world. China and Iran are authoritarian. Russia is less democratic as time passes. American influence and ideas have been so discredited that America is becoming irrelevant:

    Amid Arab protests, U.S. influence has waned

    I wish it weren't so.
    "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."

  8. #1358
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with Albert di Salvo. The road to democracy is riddled with pitfalls. In American-English tradition, those pitfalls were spread over the course of a thousand years, with increasingly democratic institutions (like Parliament) developing out of a increasingly democratic culture.
    Perhaps if they had a big brother (America/Europe) entity full of people insisting that they were never goiong to be nothing more than what they have been prescribed. Didn't kings and the Catholic Church once prrescribe oppression to a civilization that were never more than peasants for the elite game? Make no mistake. Ralph Peters (among other experts..and I mean expert in the true form) wrote about how Iraq was going to change the world. With an entire region erupting with democratic speeches and China looking to lock down what their people are watching....I'd say the entire world is about to enter a stage it stupidly insisted was never to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I was thinking of France too, but as a negative example. The French Revolution was bloody and resulted in decades worth of dictatorships.
    Exactly. Think about it. After only 7 years, and the beginning of a regional eruption that themes around democracy, people want every single IED to mean failure. Aren't the stupid French supposed to be the superior human beings in the universe? If they took some 70 years, perhaps we could keep an open mind and give Arabs a little bit of space to trip over some inevitable mistakes along their path to making a more secure and safe world. We have to face this truth....relying on the Mubaraks and the Husseins has been not only morally decrepit, but tactically wrong in terms of long term security.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-04-11 at 03:32 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Hey, where did that guy get off to anyway? Did he get ****canned from the Marine Corp, or something, for becoming a Liberal, or violating DADT?
    They promoted him and made him a chief of a 17 man team that is headed to Afghanistan for 365 to be imbedded within a certain Afghani force...somewhere.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Perhaps if they had a big brother (America/Europe) entity full of people insisting that they were never goiong to be nothing more than what they have been prescribed. Didn't kings and the Catholic Church once prrescribe oppression to a civilization that were never more than peasants for the elite game? Make no mistake. Ralph Peters (among other experts..and I mean expert in the true form) wrote about how Iraq was going to change the world. With an entire region erupting with democratic speeches and China looking to lock down what their people are watching....I'd say the entire world is about to enter a stage it stupidly insisted was never to be.




    Exactly. Think about it. After only 7 years, and the beginning of a regional eruption that themes around democracy, people want every single IED to mean failure. Aren't the stupid French supposed to be the superior human beings in the universe? If they took some 70 years, perhaps we could keep an open mind and give Arabs a little bit of space to trip over some inevitable mistakes along their path to making a more secure and safe world. We have to face this truth....relying on the Mubaraks and the Husseins has been not only morally decrepit, but tactically wrong in terms of long term security.
    + 1,000,000

    Damn, MSgt, when you're hot, you immolate those who have no vision!

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