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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #1331
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You'd rather have a pro-American totalitarian controlling them.
    Well, we got rid of the last one in Iraq, and you guys bitched about that, too.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Well, we got rid of the last one in Iraq, and you guys bitched about that, too.
    Saddam Hussein was neither an Islamist nor a pro-American totalitarian when we deposed him. What in God's name are you talking about? Just dropping random comments that have nothing to do with the chain of the conversation?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-04-11 at 01:14 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, but they were never suppressed successfully like more secular organizations. It seems that the mosque was the one civil institution that Mubarak couldn't completely eliminate. As a result, the Muslim Brotherhood became the outlet for many people who were opposed to Mubarak. I think it's rash to assume that anyone in the MB (or even a majority) wants to establish a totalitarian theocracy and fight a war with Israel.
    I gave you the link to their website. Why not check out what they themselves say about Israel? It's pointless to be an optimistic guesser.



    I am not defending them; I wouldn't vote for them. I am simply advocating not shunning them when they haven't done anything to us, since we will need to have a good relationship with the next Egyptian government. Sometimes democracy means that people elect someone you don't like.
    I don't think anyone has discussed "shunning" them. All I'm suggesting is that we be made aware of their presence, their philosophy, and to watch them closely. Maybe they are harmless, perhaps not. But let's also not live in denial.

    Why do we need to have a good relationship with the next Egyptian government? Isn't it at least as important that they have a good relationship with the West? It's not them who are handing out billions of dollars in aid each year.

    They have eschewed violence in Egypt for decades now. They are supporting the democratic process. And they are not screaming inflammatory anti-Israel rhetoric right now. That doesn't mean that they're "moderate," but it does indicate that they're pragmatic enough to at least act in their own best interests.
    You really don't know anything about them, nor their attitudes toward terrorism or Israel. You should investigate their website some more before you make these hasty comments.

    I find it's best to not automatically assume the worst intentions for other nations and political entities, in the absence of solid reasons to assume the worst. That leads to poor relations with other nations, which doesn't benefit anyone.
    We needn't assume the worst but let's not be entirely naive of what they stand for either. There is a lot of information about them, information they have published themselves, and we can certainly get a good idea of what they are about, as well as their deceptions.

    I don;t think we should entirely trust them but at the same time we can certainly listen to what they have to say.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So then, the only reason that an Egyptian would join the Muslim Brotherhood is if they agreed with the desire to establish a totalitarian theocratic state that stretches for thousands of miles, wanted to fight a war with Israel, and wanted to suppress women's rights?
    Isn't that what militant Islamism is all about?

    The Muslim Brotherhood has been the default anti-Mubarak group in Egypt for 30 years. They appealed to a lot of people for precisely that reason and nothing else. The idea that they are a monolithic hive mind, and every member is dedicated to that agenda is absurd.
    You have still not familiarizd yourself with this group. You are self censoring to the point of irrationality.

    And what makes you think that they'll cease to act in their own best interests if they gained power?
    The point is trying to be made that they are always acting in their own best interests, and have been for many years.
    You'd rather have a pro-American totalitarian controlling them.
    What's wrong with being pro-American? What would you prefer?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Saddam Hussein was neither an Islamist nor a pro-American totalitarian when we deposed him. What in God's name are you talking about? Just dropping random comments that have nothing to do with the chain of the conversation?
    I understood the point completely, and I'm sure many others did as well.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I don't think anyone has discussed "shunning" them. All I'm suggesting is that we be made aware of their presence, their philosophy, and to watch them closely. Maybe they are harmless, perhaps not. But let's also not live in denial.
    Oh I agree, there's no need to trust them. And if they become part of the next Egyptian government, we should absolutely continue urging them to respect freedom of speech and women's rights. I'm just saying that there's no need to start off threatening them or shunning them (which has been advocated in this thread by apdst). We can and do work with groups with very different agendas from ours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    I don;t think we should entirely trust them but at the same time we can certainly listen to what they have to say.
    I agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    The point is trying to be made that they are always acting in their own best interests, and have been for many years.
    And doing something irrational like trying to launch a war with Israel, or pissing off the Egyptian military and/or the US government would not be in their best interests.

    Why do we need to have a good relationship with the next Egyptian government? Isn't it at least as important that they have a good relationship with the West? It's not them who are handing out billions of dollars in aid each year.
    Yeah but an Egypt that was hostile to the US would have the ability to stir up quite a bit of trouble. I doubt that any democratic government will be as close to the US as Mubarak was, but we can at least have a decent relationship with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    What's wrong with being pro-American? What would you prefer?
    I would prefer that the Egyptians be able to decide what kind of government they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    I understood the point completely, and I'm sure many others did as well.
    Maybe you can fill me in then. I generally don't even respond to Erod's turds because he never follows the chain of conversation.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-04-11 at 01:42 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post

    And doing something irrational like trying to launch a war with Israel, or pissing off the Egyptian military and/or the US government would not be in their best interests.
    They could not attempt anything like this in the past because they didn't have the power. But they are certainly growing in force and influence and we should be aware of their stated ambitions.

    Yeah but an Egypt that was hostile to the US would have the ability to stir up quite a bit of trouble. I doubt that any democratic government will be as close to the US as Mubarak was, but we can at least have a decent relationship with them.
    We can have a decent relationship with anyone, but can they have a decent relationship with us? That question is not asked often enough, as though it is the west who always has to extend a friendly hand, filled with cash.

    I would prefer that the Egyptians be able to decide what kind of government they want.
    Sure, but will they get the government they want? Look what happened in Iran, the rumblings all over the ME, and what's happening in once secular Turkey. Experience tells us that elections n the Middle East have often been a sham, just as they have in many dictatorships. One man-one vote-one time.

  8. #1338
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    You've got it wrong. The neocon movement began with Reagan. Many in his administration were neocons. It has always been a right wing thing.
    Your first mistake is to call me wrong. You may as well learn this now. I don't blurt out BS. But if you consider it BS because you have not spent time looking past a few sensational "headlines," you can guarantee yourself that I have thought well on it. Your second mistake is one of sophomoric political sheepdom.....

    "New" conservatives initially approached this view from the political left. Neoconservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now that you have an idea of where the NeoCons originated, let's look further and see when they drifted to the right....

    Neoconservatives came to dislike the counterculture of the 1960s baby boomers, and what they saw as anti-Americanism in the non-interventionism of the movement against the Vietnam War.

    As the policies of the New Left pushed the Democrats to the Left, these intellectuals continued to support the Roosevelt-Truman-Kennedy traditions of the party while becoming disillusioned with President Lyndon B. Johnson's Great Society domestic programs.

    They rejected the Democratic Party's foreign policy drift in the 1970s, especially after the nomination of anti-war candidate George McGovern for president in 1972. The influential 1970 bestseller The Real Majority by Ben Wattenberg expressed that the "real majority" of the electorate supported economic liberalism but social conservatism, and warned Democrats it could be disastrous to take liberal stances on certain social and crime issues.

    Many supported Democratic senator Henry M. "Scoop" Jackson during his 1972 and 1976 campaigns for president. Among those who worked for Jackson were future neoconservatives Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, and Richard Perle. In the late 1970s neoconservative support moved to Ronald Reagan and the Republicans, who promised to confront Soviet expansionism. Neoconservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I provided you a link so that you can read up what I consider political common knowledge. The next time you feel like accusing me of error do your homework first. The NeoCon movement began with Reagan? Pull your head out of your ass. My guess is that you are young and are a political victim of mommy and daddy.
    Last edited by MSgt; 02-04-11 at 02:33 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei says that America is on the verge of irreparable defeat in the Middle East as a result of the toppling dominos in Tunisia and Egypt. Imo America is simply irrelevant now.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    Really?
    Wikipedia


    Neocons became a force under Reagan. Not Clinton

    Ollie North was a neocon. He was never a liberal democrat.
    Oh no...no...no. Frst you blurted out that NeoCons "began with Reagan" (POST 1124). Now you state that they "became a force under Reagan" (POST 1132). Figure it out. By altering your words, you produce acknowledgement that you were wrong. You recognize this and now assume to be able to change your words around because we are what....too stupid to read?

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