Page 133 of 200 FirstFirst ... 3383123131132133134135143183 ... LastLast
Results 1,321 to 1,330 of 2000

Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #1321
    Sage
    Erod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    North Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:47 AM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    13,073

    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Jordan and Algeria have already pledged immediate democratic reforms.
    You mean "democratic" reforms.

  2. #1322
    Sage
    VanceMack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:32 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    54,714

    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The more I learn, the more I think the idea that Egypt is going to become another Iran is ridiculous.

    Iran has oil which is toxic for democracy; Egypt has very little oil. Iran is a melting pot of ethnicities; Egypt is almost universally Arab. Iran is Shiite and therefore tends toward hierarchical religious structures; Egypt is Sunni and therefore tends toward decentralized religion. The Iranian model is in no way replicable in Egypt. Egypt may or may not have an easy transition to democracy, but it certainly isn't going to become Iran. I think Turkey is a much more likely role model.
    The simple fact that Egypt HAS no real industrial base makes it MORE likely, not less likely. When the season of discontent is over and their new government is installed, where will the new jobs come from? Where will the nations financial support come from? Home much of a blow will this be to their tourism trade?
    And if you have noticed, Turkey is starting to get a little froggy itself.

    I dunno...I hope you are right. Still...

  3. #1323
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The simple fact that Egypt HAS no real industrial base makes it MORE likely, not less likely. When the season of discontent is over and their new government is installed, where will the new jobs come from? Where will the nations financial support come from? Home much of a blow will this be to their tourism trade?
    I'm not sure why any of these factors would lead support for theocracy as opposed to democracy. If their next government doesn't solve the economic problem, they could vote them out and replace them with someone who does.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack
    And if you have noticed, Turkey is starting to get a little froggy itself.
    Turkey's democracy is imperfect (as I expect Egypt's would be), but it is leaps and bounds better than any Arab state.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  4. #1324
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Canada, Costa Rica
    Last Seen
    05-16-16 @ 09:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    31,645

    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I think that a changing of tactics indicates a bowing to pragmatism and reality. And let's also not forget that they were the only viable opposition group for the past 30 years, since Mubarak suppressed everything else. If Egypt transitions to free elections, they'll likely have a wide range of competition, and people who dislike Mubarak won't automatically gravitate to them.
    They were actually banned in Egypt.



    The Muslim Brotherhood is not a PAC of a few hundred people who organized for a specific political purpose. It's a nationwide organization that cannot be said to have a monolithic view of the world.
    In fact the MB is aligned with Muslim orgaizations all over the world, including CAIR in the United States and are well established in the UK.

    The Advance of the Muslim Brotherhood in the UK Current Trends in Islamist Ideology

    Who is defending the Muslim Brotherhood? I'd hardly call stating that they are neither willing nor able to go to war with Israel to be "defending" them.
    By making the claim that they are unwilling or unable to go to war with Israel you are obviously defending them, and you have guessed incorrectly as well.

    I didn't say they were moderate. I said they were pragmatic, and we'll need to work with the next government of Egypt regardless of who they elect.
    And what evidence do you have that they are "pragmatic"?

    You are guessing again, and simply expressing your hopes..

  5. #1325
    Sage
    VanceMack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:32 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    54,714

    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not sure why any of these factors would lead support for theocracy as opposed to democracy. If their next government doesn't solve the economic problem, they could vote them out and replace them with someone who does.
    Turkey's democracy is imperfect (as I expect Egypt's would be), but it is leaps and bounds better than any Arab state.
    Might want to check into the hotbeds of fundamentalism in the ME and see what the primary factor is. Just sayin...

  6. #1326
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Might want to check into the hotbeds of fundamentalism in the ME and see what the primary factor is. Just sayin...
    Hmm, OK. Let's do that. The hotbeds of fundamentalism in the ME...that would be Gaza, Yemen, Somalia, and Iran. The first three are desperately poor failed states; the latter is an oil-rich Shiite country. None of them have much in common with the larger Sunni Arab states.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  7. #1327
    free market communist
    Gardener's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Last Seen
    09-30-17 @ 12:27 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    26,661

    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post


    The Muslim Brotherhood is not a PAC of a few hundred people who organized for a specific political purpose. It's a nationwide organization that cannot be said to have a monolithic view of the world.
    Well, people are free to SAY they are not monolithic, anyway. If the term does not apply to these totalitarians, however, it does not apply to anybody.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Who is defending the Muslim Brotherhood? I'd hardly call stating that they are neither willing nor able to go to war with Israel to be "defending" them.
    Denial, trivialization, mischaracterization -- all are componants of defense. You are not supporting them, certainly, but neither are you willing to acknowledge what they are all about. For instance, your hackneyed statement that they are not monolithic when they are, in fact, among the MOST monolithic groups imaginable. They seek to establish a totalitarian theocratic state that stretches for thousands of miles and where people's lives are micromanaged down to the iota by a fierce and unbending Islamic law. It doesn't GET much more monolithic in viewpoint than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I didn't say they were moderate. I said they were pragmatic, and we'll need to work with the next government of Egypt regardless of who they elect.
    Yes, they are obviously pragmatic. They have been laying low for a reason.

    That shouldn't lead you to believe they are something they are not, however, nor should it lead you to believe they have altered their objective -- an objective that could prove disasterous for the region as well as internationally. I don't know about you, but I sure don't want Islamists controlling such vital shipping lanes, anyway.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  8. #1328
    Sage
    Erod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    North Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:47 AM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    13,073

    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm not sure why any of these factors would lead support for theocracy as opposed to democracy. If their next government doesn't solve the economic problem, they could vote them out and replace them with someone who does.



    Turkey's democracy is imperfect (as I expect Egypt's would be), but it is leaps and bounds better than any Arab state.
    The closest thing to democracy in the Middle East is........Iraq.

    Imagine that.

  9. #1329
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    They were actually banned in Egypt.
    Yes, but they were never suppressed successfully like more secular organizations. It seems that the mosque was the one civil institution that Mubarak couldn't completely eliminate. As a result, the Muslim Brotherhood became the outlet for many people who were opposed to Mubarak. I think it's rash to assume that anyone in the MB (or even a majority) wants to establish a totalitarian theocracy and fight a war with Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    By making the claim that they are unwilling or unable to go to war with Israel you are obviously defending them, and you have guessed incorrectly as well.
    I am not defending them; I wouldn't vote for them. I am simply advocating not shunning them when they haven't done anything to us, since we will need to have a good relationship with the next Egyptian government. Sometimes democracy means that people elect someone you don't like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    And what evidence do you have that they are "pragmatic"?
    They have eschewed violence in Egypt for decades now. They are supporting the democratic process. And they are not screaming inflammatory anti-Israel rhetoric right now. That doesn't mean that they're "moderate," but it does indicate that they're pragmatic enough to at least act in their own best interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant
    You are guessing again, and simply expressing your hopes..
    I find it's best to not automatically assume the worst intentions for other nations and political entities, in the absence of solid reasons to assume the worst. That leads to poor relations with other nations, which doesn't benefit anyone.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-04-11 at 12:45 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  10. #1330
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Denial, trivialization, mischaracterization -- all are componants of defense. You are not supporting them, certainly, but neither are you willing to acknowledge what they are all about. For instance, your hackneyed statement that they are not monolithic when they are, in fact, among the MOST monolithic groups imaginable. They seek to establish a totalitarian theocratic state that stretches for thousands of miles and where people's lives are micromanaged down to the iota by a fierce and unbending Islamic law. It doesn't GET much more monolithic in viewpoint than that.
    So then, the only reason that an Egyptian would join the Muslim Brotherhood is if they agreed with the desire to establish a totalitarian theocratic state that stretches for thousands of miles, wanted to fight a war with Israel, and wanted to suppress women's rights?

    The Muslim Brotherhood has been the default anti-Mubarak group in Egypt for 30 years. They appealed to a lot of people for precisely that reason and nothing else. The idea that they are a monolithic hive mind, and every member is dedicated to that agenda is absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener
    Yes, they are obviously pragmatic. They have been laying low for a reason.
    And what makes you think that they'll cease to act in their own best interests if they gained power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener
    I don't know about you, but I sure don't want Islamists controlling such vital shipping lanes, anyway.
    You'd rather have a pro-American totalitarian controlling them.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-04-11 at 12:55 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •