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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    and what do you think the Muslim Brotherhood represents today? Does their changing of tactics indicate the changing of their objective?

    I'm reminded of a nasty group we have here in Oregon called the Oregon Citizens alliance. They have managed to get several ballot measures on the ballot targeting Gay people for persecution. The first was very direct and demanding, and was soundly defeated. They softened the language in the second, and it was defeated, too. They refined their language yet again the third time around. Did this represent a softer, gentler OCA? Of course not, as it only represented calculation.

    I've noticed a curious phenomenon over the years in that those who describe themselves as liberal defending uber-conservatism as long as such conservatism arises from outside their own culture, while those describing themselves as conservatism will take on the role of a liberal when confronted with the same conservatism. If a Christian group with beliefs similar to the Muslim Brotherhood were to arise in the United States, and with a similar degree of organization, the same people who are defending the Muslim Brotherhood would be all over it, and I dare say, many of the same ones pointing out its danger here would be looking the other way.

    There is nothing moderate about the Muslim Brotherhood. They have eschewed terrorism for now, but that does not mean they have abandoned their agenda. Their agenda is totalitarian in nature, and they are VERY well organized, so let's not fool ourselves into thinking otherwise, o.k.?
    It is still better than letting them and the moderates continue to suffer under a dictatorship we support. Come what may, and Osama's strategy is still operational (change US FP, overthrow dictatorships, consolidate fundamentalists, create caliphate), we have to provide an opportunity to the moderates.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    and what do you think the Muslim Brotherhood represents today? Does their changing of tactics indicate the changing of their objective?

    I'm reminded of a nasty group we have here in Oregon called the Oregon Citizens alliance. They have managed to get several ballot measures on the ballot targeting Gay people for persecution. The first was very direct and demanding, and was soundly defeated. They softened the language in the second, and it was defeated, too. They refined their language yet again the third time around. Did this represent a softer, gentler OCA? Of course not, as it only represented calculation.

    I've noticed a curious phenomenon over the years in that those who describe themselves as liberal defending uber-conservatism as long as such conservatism arises from outside their own culture, while those describing themselves as conservative will take on the role of a liberal when confronted with the same conservatism. If a Christian group with beliefs similar to the Muslim Brotherhood were to arise in the United States, and with a similar degree of organization, the same people who are defending the Muslim Brotherhood would be all over it, and I dare say, many of the same ones pointing out its danger here would be looking the other way.

    There is nothing moderate about the Muslim Brotherhood. They have eschewed terrorism for now, but that does not mean they have abandoned their agenda. Their agenda is totalitarian in nature, and they are VERY well organized, so let's not fool ourselves into thinking otherwise, o.k.?
    Come what may, I think the whole muslim thing is a "conservative vs liberal" thing, not a well thought out "right vs wrong". COnservatives take an anti-terrorist, anti-fundamentalist position, liberals must take a pro-muslim (notice I didnt say pro-terrorist) stance and defned against that which the conservatives oppose. They dont defend fundamentalists or extremists but invariably opt for the "but its not ALL of them argument.

    Irony...the people they are pretending arent a viable threat would be the first to target women, gays, and liberals in general.

    As I have said...I HOPE this works out well for the people of Egypt, but I believe it is likely to be just another Iran. When (if...and I hope it doesnt) that happens, libs get to own the fact that they endorsed blindly a process that killed thousands.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I agree, but at the same time, I think we need to be waiting in the wings to clean up the mess.
    Then obviously you don't agree. I guess the U.S. military should be called the Earth Police Department.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Personally, I say we let them work it out. Maybe it all works out for the best and they have a peaceful transition and democracy. OR...they still have no jobs because their country has little outside of the toruism industry, they end up in flames, and become a fundamentalist state. Either way...they kill each other off, have at it. They become a fundamentalist state and kill off the liberals and put women back in burkas, well...thats 'democracy' after all...isnt it? They attack our allies, well..we should come to their aid as quickly as we would France or England and turn the place into a great big giant smoking hole.
    That would make way too much common sense to be a foreign policy in today's America. According to the Right, if there is the potential, for a potential threat, to be somewhat possible, at some point possibly in the distant future, possibly, then we must attack.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Come what may, I think the whole muslim thing is a "conservative vs liberal" thing, not a well thought out "right vs wrong". COnservatives take an anti-terrorist, anti-fundamentalist position, liberals must take a pro-muslim (notice I didnt say pro-terrorist) stance and defned against that which the conservatives oppose. They dont defend fundamentalists or extremists but invariably opt for the "but its not ALL of them argument.

    Irony...the people they are pretending arent a viable threat would be the first to target women, gays, and liberals in general.

    As I have said...I HOPE this works out well for the people of Egypt, but I believe it is likely to be just another Iran. When (if...and I hope it doesnt) that happens, libs get to own the fact that they endorsed blindly a process that killed thousands.
    I think we all have a reactionary tendency in us to one degree or anoter, but if more of us would base our opinions upon a consistant value system rather than simply reacting against what the "other side" is saying, we might better avoid these sorts of double standards.

    I don't think it is really a liberal tendency so much as it is a failure to view others using the same standards we view ourselves.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    and what do you think the Muslim Brotherhood represents today? Does their changing of tactics indicate the changing of their objective?
    I think that a changing of tactics indicates a bowing to pragmatism and reality. And let's also not forget that they were the only viable opposition group for the past 30 years, since Mubarak suppressed everything else. If Egypt transitions to free elections, they'll likely have a wide range of competition, and people who dislike Mubarak won't automatically gravitate to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener
    I'm reminded of a nasty group we have here in Oregon called the Oregon Citizens alliance. They have managed to get several ballot measures on the ballot targeting Gay people for persecution. The first was very direct and demanding, and was soundly defeated. They softened the language in the second, and it was defeated, too. They refined their language yet again the third time around. Did this represent a softer, gentler OCA? Of course not, as it only represented calculation.
    The Muslim Brotherhood is not a PAC of a few hundred people who organized for a specific political purpose. It's a nationwide organization that cannot be said to have a monolithic view of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener
    I've noticed a curious phenomenon over the years in that those who describe themselves as liberal defending uber-conservatism as long as such conservatism arises from outside their own culture,
    Who is defending the Muslim Brotherhood? I'd hardly call stating that they are neither willing nor able to go to war with Israel to be "defending" them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener
    There is nothing moderate about the Muslim Brotherhood. They have eschewed terrorism for now, but that does not mean they have abandoned their agenda. Their agenda is totalitarian in nature, and they are VERY well organized, so let's not fool ourselves into thinking otherwise, o.k.?
    I didn't say they were moderate. I said they were pragmatic, and we'll need to work with the next government of Egypt regardless of who they elect.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-04-11 at 11:35 AM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    The more I learn, the more I think the idea that Egypt is going to become another Iran is ridiculous.

    Iran has oil which is toxic for democracy; Egypt has very little oil. Iran is a melting pot of ethnicities; Egypt is almost universally Arab. Iran is Shiite and therefore tends toward hierarchical religious structures; Egypt is Sunni and therefore tends toward decentralized religion. The Iranian model is in no way replicable in Egypt. Egypt may or may not have an easy transition to democracy, but it certainly isn't going to become Iran. I think Turkey is a much more likely role model.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 02-04-11 at 11:40 AM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The idea that Egypt is going to become another Iran is ridiculous. Iran has oil which is toxic for democracy; Egypt has very little oil. Iran is a melting pot of ethnicities; Egypt is almost universally Arab. Iran is Shiite and therefore tends toward hierarchical religious structures; Egypt is Sunni and therefore tends toward decentralized religion. The Iranian model is in no way replicable in Egypt.

    Egypt may or may not have an easy transition to democracy, but it certainly isn't going to become Iran. I think Turkey is a much more likely role model.
    Quit with your logic and facts Khandahar, it's getting really really old ok...

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    And now, much the same thing is bubbling up in Yemen. Who's next? Jordan? Pakistan? Algeria? Morocco?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    And now, much the same thing is bubbling up in Yemen. Who's next? Jordan? Pakistan? Algeria? Morocco?
    Jordan and Algeria have already pledged immediate democratic reforms.
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