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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    No, but there is a significant change in tone on Fox News, and a more charged feeling in any of the networks with their employees or colleagues being attacked by the pro-government mob. The level of skepticism has really been toned down in comparison with the beginning of this story.
    Maybe you're right you Fox News watcher.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    They haven't "gravitated" to dictatorships. Did the majority of the people of Iraq choose to be under the thumb of Saddam Hussein? Thugs and dictators keep control over the majority of the population through the willingness to use unbridled force to control them (and by being better armed and better equipped than the populace that they are oppressing).

    Mubarak has maintained control for 30 years in Egypt primarily because WE ARMED AND FUNDED HIM. You are pretending as if these people CHOSE oppression.

    In reality, WE CHOSE IT FOR THEM. It's time for you to be intellectually honest.
    We didn't CHOOSE it for them, but yes, and for years, Bush, and now Obama, have pleaded with him to make much needed changes (probably Clinton, too). We didn't support him as a ruthless dictator, but we had to recognize the very tenuous peace that exists between Egypt and Israel, which remains miraculous considering the region.

    The answer isn't just black and white. Do we want Egypt to go the way of Libya or Iran? You feel for the people, but you recognize the dangers for Israelis if Egypt or Jordan turn into fundamentalist Islamic ruled nations.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Here's some answers to your questions in a compelling blog post from Pajamas Media:

    Michael Totten Sandmonkey’s Last Post



    To those of you who are so sure that we should continue to support Mubarak and that this will result in an Islamic theocracy...

    I would only ask...what if you're wrong?

    I do not, as a rule of thumb, pray. But my hopes are always with people, in Egypt and elsewhere, who are willing to risk everything for freedom.
    And, at this point there's no clear indication which faction trully wants freedom.

    IMO, they are just different sides of the same coin.
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    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    So, since they don't dig AQ, that makes them the good guys?
    Nope. It doesn't really matter if they're good guys or bad guys. They'll play a role in the next Egyptian government, and we need to have a workable relationship with the Egyptian government.

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst
    The MB wants war with Israel. Tell us how that's going to become a workable relationship.
    You seem to be under the false impression that the Muslim Brotherhood A) uniformly wants to go to war with Israel, B) actually would be capable of making that happen, and C) couldn't be dissuaded from doing so. All of those are incorrect. First of all, it's easy for people to say outlandlish things when you're the opposition or running for office, but when you're actually in charge you tend to tone it down a little bit. Second of all, the Egyptian military is not on great terms with the Muslim Brotherhood, and there's no way that they could go to war with Israel without the military's approval. And finally, it wouldn't even be in the Muslim Brotherhood's political interests to launch a war. They're pragmatic enough to understand that they would be crushed by Israel and fall out of favor with the Egyptian public.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    See what happens when we meddle in the affairs of other nations, fund oppressive regimes, and provide them with weapons?

    We're reaping what we've sown for the past 30 years, and YES, it is messy.
    We've had to meddle in the affairs, fund, and arm virtually every nation in the world other than Russia and China just to keep them solvent.

    The vast majority of this planet is third world, or close to it.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    Maybe you're right you Fox News watcher.
    Hey, today when Meg was going on about Lohan, I got annoyed, flipped the channel, and went to CNN...and found out why I don't like CNN and mostly watch Fox. They were asking people on ****ing Facebook about whether or not Mark Kelly should go to outerfreaking space. One viewer, on facebook *grumble* said "no, he shouldn't. He's already been to space. What's to gain?" I immediately went back to Fox. Fox: the one network less tempted to use ridiculous internet technologies for absolutely nothing. Down with social media!
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 02-03-11 at 05:22 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And, at this point there's no clear indication which faction trully wants freedom.

    IMO, they are just different sides of the same coin.
    With 40 percent unemployment, most of them aren't concerned with freedom right now. They want a decent meal and some idea of a future of some kind.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    If somehow Mubarak were to maintain power, we'd definitely have another Saddam on our hands. You know he feels betrayed, no matter how much Bush and Obama have been pleading with him to make changes.

    He's got to go. If the Egyptian people can't get that done, do we intervene here, too?

    Messy, messy, messy.
    It certainly is messy, but that reality is somewhat dying down on today's narrative for the media. Revolutions really are tricky things. When Shep was bringing up the American Revolution, I wanted him to do a lot more. Bring people in to talk about the nasty business of revolution and how it affects other states near it. Go ahead, go into the French Revolution, talk about what went wrong, and who was deathly afraid of the aftermath spreading to them. Of course, the passioned use of our Declaration of Independence is certainly interesting and reminiscent of the French Revolution and Jefferson's embrace of its beginning, but you aren't going to get a great deal of attention towards political or historical complexity. Going back to CNN today, one reporter talked about Rumsfeld's excerpts from his upcoming memoir and said something like "this is the second blush of history. History occurs, and then you turn the page and it is written about by the participants. Then in about 30 or 40 years we will have it all figured out." Well, no you wouldn't because things are always coming to light and our insights change constantly. You never get it figured out.

    Some people are just wanting the conflict to end either way, and no one will be entirely satisfied.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 02-03-11 at 05:33 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    It certainly is messy, but that reality is somewhat dying down on today's narrative for the media. Revolutions really are tricky things. When Shep was bringing up the American Revolution, I wanted him to do a lot more. Bring people in to talk about the nasty business of revolution and how it affects other states near it. Go ahead, go into the French Revolution, talk about what went wrong, and who was deathly afraid of the aftermath spreading to them. Of course, the passioned use of our Declaration of Independence is certainly interesting and reminiscent of the French Revolution and Jefferson's embrace of its beginning, but you aren't going to get a great deal of attention towards political or historical complexity. Going back to CNN today, one reporter talked about Rumsfeld's excerpts from his upcoming memoir and said something like "this is the second blush of history. History occurs, and then you turn the page and it is written about by the participants. Then in about 30 or 40 years we will have it all figured out." Well, no you wouldn't because things are always coming to light and our insights change constantly.
    And to add to your point, this situation appeared seemingly out of nowhere. There was Tunesia, then this.

    It doesn't have the look of purely a "revolution" per se. Such things usually are seen coming on the horizon pretty clearly for some time, such as the American and French revolutions. This has other components. There are different factions that could benefit if this is done relatively peacefully, and others that will benefit if it devolves into violent chaos.

    Right now, I don't think we know what to make of this.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    From what I have read, there are quite a bit of antecedents. The issue is that from a given distance, we are not necessarily privy to them. Some years ago, a Historian told us, "Americans had no idea what was going on, but you can bet your butt that the people over there knew what was going on."
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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