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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    when is our perplexed president gonna meet with the leaders of iran, like he promised in his campaign, without preconditions?
    I thought you guys didn't want that?

    "the belief that somehow communications and positions and willingness to sit down and have serious negotiations need to be done in a face to face fashion as Senator Obama wants to do, which then enhances the prestige of a nation that's a sponsor of terrorists and is directly responsible for the deaths of brave young Americans, I think is an unacceptable position..."

    John McCain: Obama Unfit To Protect The United States

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    the proi mubarak people have become violent, NOT the anti mubarak protestors. and the pro mubarak protests are anything but spontaneous.
    Still, they are pushing for an illegal overthrow and not content with the fact that he will be gone in September. I must confess that I need to research more into this story, but there is a threat of Islamists pushing for an Islamic regime. Egypt is a key ally in a region plagued by conflict. I think it was foolish of the US to pretty much unconditionally back Mubarak. However, it would be detrimental if an Islamist is elected or put into power that breaks peace.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Still, they are pushing for an illegal overthrow and not content with the fact that he will be gone in September. I must confess that I need to research more into this story, but there is a threat of Islamists pushing for an Islamic regime. Egypt is a key ally in a region plagued by conflict. I think it was foolish of the US to pretty much unconditionally back Mubarak. However, it would be detrimental if an Islamist is elected or put into power that breaks peace.
    there really is no threat that of an islamist regime. the muslim brotherhood is a small part of the government. and anyway, SO WHAT if the egyptian people decide they want an islamist govt? it's not our damned business.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    there really is no threat that of an islamist regime. the muslim brotherhood is a small part of the government. and anyway, SO WHAT if the egyptian people decide they want an islamist govt? it's not our damned business.
    Tell it to Iran. The original protesters there weren't wanting anything like what they ended up with.

    Notice how there are virtually no women in the protests, even when they were civil. Real democracy doesn't have a chance in that part of the world.
    Last edited by Erod; 02-03-11 at 12:13 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I have to be honest...I don't think these movements are coming about because of our bungling nation building efforts in Iraq. I think that they are happening as a result of increased access to technology and information, which have exposed people to new ideas.
    To be honest, I think it is a variety of things, of which our successful nation building efforts in Iraq are a large element. Of course, everyone's desire, in the ME and beyond, is that the people do this for themselves, without undue external influence. The problem is that that is a really, really hard thing to pull off. Note that the pro-Mubarak crew have many in the security services and that of course means that they have ready access to firearms.

    You point out increased access to technology and information. I think Al Jazeera is a HUGE part of this increased access to CRITICAL analysis of regional politics, governments and economics/jobs. They have a LOT of credibility with Arabs as an honest news source, I have heard. This comes from a friend of mine who is a lawyer for Rule of Law issues in the ME and N. Africa (Sudan, Somalia).

    I am sure there are other external factors (Tunisia, Israel, Turkey) just as there are many internal issues (Jobs, Education, Police State, ...)

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I may draw different conclusions about how the US should behave towards the ME, but your analysis of Radical and Modernist Islam is very succinct and, I think, quite accurate. Thanks for that!
    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I think that we should be making public statements in support of freedom and democracy and privately urging Mubarak to get the hell out tomorrow. Which is, I think, exactly what we're doing.

    Score one for Obama. I bet that just galls you, doesn't it?
    I would be less sceptical of these statements if Obama threatend to cut off military aid and impose an arms embargo. Im amazed that in disscussions about America supporting democratic change in the middle east no one actually mentions what a radical *change* in policy this would be. Step one for supporting democracy in the Middle East is to stop supporting authoritarian regimes with weapons, aid, and troops. I will belive it when i see it.

    As El Baredi put it last year "It has not been based on dialogue, understanding, supporting civil society and empowering people, but rather it's been based on supporting authoritarian systems as long as the oil keeps pumping."

    I posted this statement in a thread about this last year ( http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...e-regimes.html) criticising U.S support for the regime and few responded other than those berating El Baredi for his anti-Americanism. Now that people can have events in the region spoon fed to them in a palatable form without any context of their own countries culpability in this repression. Thus they can make supportive statements about how America can bring democracy to the region but never actually do anything about how their taxes are being used to support authoritarianism across the region. If you really care about authoritarianism in the Middle East then lobby your congress to stop funding it.
    Last edited by Red_Dave; 02-03-11 at 12:58 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    The Truth is this is exactly what Bush and the 'neocons' wanted 10 years ago.
    The Truth is that it has in fact worked. (the sourest of pills to swallow for the left/others).
    Though demography/hunger/poverty were also causes of riots and will NOT Be cured by democracy alone. Egyptians, Yemenis, etc, will still live with the consequences of high/impossibe-to-support fertility. ie, Gaza's haven't though Hamas is supported by some countries & the UNRWA which abates their unsustainable Birth rate.

    The Truth is YOU/Mira has said that Islam needs a Reformation and if/since the Muslim Brotherhood gets effective control or is even the majority party, YOU get 'backfired' on just like everyone else who cares about a Liberal/Secular democracy.
    I believe Gardener made a post to the that effect/liberal-ideals-first earlier.

    And I made several posts in the string Acknowledging ALL truly elected democatic govts, if not wanting to shower them all with Aid or weaponry.

    Birth rates ??? all this has to do with birth rates ???? really ???

    There were millions of people out on the streets yesterday, wanting Democracy and freedom of speech. Egyians from all walks of life, rich, poor, Muslims, Christians, intellectuals, workers..... and you call it a matter of birth rate ???

    And what does Islam has to do with this ? The brotherhood is NOT leading this uprising, as a matter of fact there is no leader. The brotherhood makes less than 20% of the population and they are asking for democratic elections as well.

    What's the percentage of Orthodox Jews in Israel ? the Babtists and born again Christians in the USA ?? Ironically it's exactly that, a born again Christian who was president of the USA for 8 years not too long ago. Wasn't he the one who tried to shove Democracy down Irak's throat ? Ahhhh, when we don't need our dictator ally anymore, we screw him up, but up until then we keep him in power and screw the people up. Birth rates


    Oh and if you think I give a bird's poo about what Gardener has to say about anything, then you're mistaken.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Birth rates ??? all this has to do with birth rates ???? really ???

    There were millions of people out on the streets yesterday, wanting Democracy and freedom of speech. Egyians from all walks of life, rich, poor, Muslims, Christians, intellectuals, workers..... and you call it a matter of birth rate ???
    Those people weren't just intellectuals and workers. (tho they interview best and ergo get on)
    Many were from Egypt's VAST hoard of unemployed and ghetto dwellers who are of course dissatisfied... and again.. won't be helped by ant New govt.
    Looting has been Rampant with many decent people, even those who want Mubarak gone, want an end to this.

    Let's not pretend all those people who didn't make the CNN/a-j interviews were intellectual democrats.
    Without growing poverty (and population), the movement wouldn't have much ground support.
    The Shah not just because he was A shah, but because he didn't 'share the wealth'.

    Birth rate is the biggest Determinant of Poverty in the Arab World.. only sustainable in the NON-revolting Oil rich countries because they CAN afford them.. for now.

    No Riots in Saudi or Qatar. Though GDP per person is going down faster in many years than oil is going up.
    Only the spike in oil and China's huge consumption support those monarchies and the social programs that keep everyone happy.
    Egypt doesn't have 18K per person to give out-- otherwise.. it'd be much quieter in Cairo.. too.
    THAT's What birth rate "has to do with it".

    And what does Islam has to do with this ? The brotherhood is NOT leading this uprising, as a matter of fact there is no leader. The brotherhood makes less than 20% of the population and they are asking for democratic elections as well.

    What's the percentage of Orthodox Jews in Israel ? the Babtists and born again Christians in the USA ?? Ironically it's exactly that, a born again Christian who was president of the USA for 8 years not too long ago. Wasn't he the one who tried to shove Democracy down Irak's throat ? Ahhhh, when we don't need our dictator ally anymore, we screw him up, but up until then we keep him in power and screw the people up. Birth rates
    Unlike in the USA or Israel, the religous party would become the most dominant if not in absolute majority.
    I believe the Brotherhood Party and it's proxies make up 'only' app 1/6 of the Egyptian parlialment, but still is the largest block.
    Without the suppression of the Mubarak Regime this would easily double IMO, especially with help from outside forces.

    Oh and if you think I give a bird's poo about what Gardener has to say about anything, then you're mistaken.
    You make light of everything you can't handle precisely beause you can't.
    Which is why you only partially responded and in the Usual childish/goofy way.
    Last edited by mbig; 02-03-11 at 01:28 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Opening dialogue with the Brotherhood would be like opening dialogue with al Qaeda.
    Actually al-Qaeda hates the Muslim Brotherhood. Apparently the MB is too warm and fuzzy for Osama Bin Laden's tastes. With that said, we can and should open dialog with them. If Egypt transitions to democracy, it isn't clear whether the MB can win a majority outright...but they almost certainly will play SOME significant role in a democratic Egypt.

    We need to have a workable relationship with Egypt, regardless of who is in charge. That means we need to come to terms with reality. The MB might not be who we would elect, but we're going to have to work with them. Isolating them only gives them a reason to hate America and radicalize their population, which certainly does not benefit American interests.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Score one for Obama.
    The Egyptian government broadened its crackdown on Thursday to the international news media and human rights workers, in an apparent effort to remove witnesses to the battle with antigovernment protesters. With fighting between anti- and pro-government forces escalating throughout the day, armed supporters of President Hosni Mubarak attacked foreign journalists, punching them and smashing their equipment. Men who protesters said were plainclothes police officers shut down news media outlets that had been operating in buildings overlooking Tahrir Square.

    An informal center set up by human rights workers in the square was seized, and a group of journalists was stopped in their car near the square by a gang of men with knives and briefly turned over to the military police, ostensibly for their protection. Two reporters working for The New York Times were released on Thursday after being detained overnight in Cairo. Two Washington Post staffers were among two dozen journalists detained by the Interior Ministry Thursday morning, the paper reported.

    The concerted effort to remove journalists lent a sense of foreboding to events in the square, where battles continued between the protesters and the Mubarak supporters, who human rights workers and protesters say are being paid and organized by the government. People bringing food, water and medicine to the protesters in the square were being stopped by Mubarak supporters, who confiscated what they had and threw some of it into the Nile.

    In the afternoon, the fighting spread beyond the square to the October 6th Bridge, which rises above the Egyptian Museum. Shots were heard, and a surgeon assisting the antigovernment protesters said three people were killed. “It was the police or the army, we don’t know,” said the surgeon, Mohamed Ezz. “Only they have guns.” That followed a night of gunfire and a day of mayhem Wednesday that left at least five dead and more than 800 wounded in a battle for the Middle East’s most populous nation. With the violence rising, the United Nations ordered the evacuation of much of its staff on Thursday, while more than 4,000 passengers made their escape through Cairo airport, The Associated Press reported.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/wo...t.html?_r=1&hp

    press secty gibbs, yesterday---if any of the violence is being initiated by the govt it must stop immediately

    if?

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