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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    does anyone else think that Bush's "Spread democracy in the middle east" is indirectly working now in a totally ****ed up way?
    in june, 2009, oblivious obama went to cairo to climb pyramids and reach out towards his "new beginning"

    In Cairo Speech, Obama Seeks 'New Beginning' for U.S., Muslim World | Online NewsHour | June 4, 2009 | PBS

    how's that working out?

    in yemen? in jordan? in lebanon? in syria?

    when is our perplexed president gonna meet with the leaders of iran, like he promised in his campaign, without preconditions?

    and when is he gonna change america's image abroad, y'know, for the better?

    how are those mideast peace talks coming along, hillary?

    are you sure these people know what they're doing?
    Last edited by The Prof; 02-03-11 at 05:46 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Laila, they will try as hard as they can to interpret what's going on to fit their politics. What is happening in the Arab world changes all of the misconceptions about the Arab people.

    The truth on the ground is that the Arab world is demanding Democracy and the irony is that the countries that are rising up are those goverened by pro-Western leaders or rather dictators. Both the Democracy that the West has been promoting and the Western-invented tools such as the Internet are backfiring against the West's interests.
    Americans looking for terrorists under every Muslim rock overturned. No more than I should expect but it is still highly annoying.

    I am not surprised or going to ponder the irony that it is many Americans and others such as Israelis who seem to be the ones most opposed to a Democratic Muslim world.

    US and the West no matter how it tries to say it supports democracy for all. The truth is democracy is only supported for those countries as long as it falls in line with Western interests otherwise it is the enemy and something to oppose

    I am not even going to answer back to those who think that somehow Egypt should be denied democracy because they may choose the wrong people. I can't even get round my anger to point out the hypocrisy not to mention how ignorant and offensive that statement is. One cannot, like many Americans claim the value human rights, democracy and freedom is universal and then make up some bull**** excuse to exclude countries based on religion. Just be honest and say you do not support democracy period. I'd respect you more.

    As if US has always been a perfect democracy. This from a country which only a few decades ago and for some within living memory. Sections of their community was treated as sub human, denied rights, denied the right to vote and have their voice heard and oppressed.
    It has matured and evolved to try and reach to its ideal of equality and yet it is denying it for others in the world to have that same chance to evolve and change because they will not automatically establish a "perfect" democracy.
    Last edited by Laila; 02-03-11 at 05:50 AM.


  3. #1153
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Laila, they will try as hard as they can to interpret what's going on to fit their politics. What is happening in the Arab world changes all of the misconceptions about the Arab people.

    The truth on the ground is that the Arab world is demanding Democracy and the irony is that the countries that are rising up are those goverened by pro-Western leaders or rather dictators. Both the Democracy that the West has been promoting and the Western-invented tools such as the Internet are backfiring against the West's interests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Americans looking for terrorists under every Muslim rock overturned. No more than I should expect but it is still highly annoying.

    I am not surprised or going to ponder the irony that it is many Americans and others such as Israelis who seem to be the ones most opposed to a Democratic Muslim world.

    US and the West no matter how it tries to say it supports democracy for all. The truth is democracy is only supported for those countries as long as it falls in line with Western interests otherwise it is the enemy and something to oppose

    I am not even going to answer back to those who think that somehow Egypt should be denied democracy because they may choose the wrong people. I can't even get round my anger to point out the hypocrisy not to mention how ignorant and offensive that statement is. One cannot, like many Americans claim the value human rights, democracy and freedom is universal and then make up some bull**** excuse to exclude countries based on religion. Just be honest and say you do not support democracy period. I'd respect you more.

    As if US has always been a perfect democracy. This from a country which only a few decades ago and for some within living memory. Sections of their community was treated as sub human, denied rights, denied the right to vote and have their voice heard and oppressed.
    It has matured and evolved to try and reach to its ideal of equality and yet it is denying it for others in the world to have that same chance to evolve and change because they will not automatically establish a "perfect" democracy.
    I abhor the hypocracy and earlier posts by Catz Part Deux, Zyphlin and particularly MSgt are spot on and shatter your generalizations.

    You are also misconstruing the position of the American government. Obama has come out in support of the protesters' wishes and are working with known contacts within the Egyptian government to help - what else would you like to see us do that we aren't doing? Our best way to help is to use our relationship with the current regime to apply pressure on them to accommodate the demands of the protesters. Simply replacing Mubarak is not enough. You must replace the regime itself. It will be very hard to do.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 02-03-11 at 07:05 AM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    I don't know if anyone else has noticed this yet because this thread is big as hell but--does anyone else think that Bush's "Spread democracy in the middle east" is indirectly working now in a totally ****ed up way?
    Oh, noooooow it's Bush's fault, since things are all cocked up.

    Hang on, let me set my watch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I have to say that I'm kind of shocked to see that Americans would decry the people uprising to obtain freedom and democracy for themselves. This country has always had a foreign policy that freedom and democracy should spread throughout the Middle East and around the world in countries where the people are oppressed by tyrants and dictators. We as a nation cheered for the Iranian demonstrators and hoped they would succeed. We're thrilled to see Tunisian reforms, forced by the people themselves.

    And yet we don't want these things for the people of Egypt, who have shed blood for the opportunity to be free? Come on. That position itself offends me, frankly. We do not have a right to keep people poor and oppressed just because we are allied with their personal dictator. We just don't. It's immoral, dang it.

    I think Mubarak will never give up power, and will sic the military on the demonstrations. I think they will fail to force him from power and grab their own freedom. But it makes me very, very sad for them. All people deserve freedom and free elections. All. People. It's extraordinary to see Americans saying, in effect, "No freedom for them. It's not in our best interest." Bah.
    We still don't know that that is exactly what's going on. Iran's people had an, "uprising to obtain freedom and demoacracy for themselves", in 1979, but we've since learned that it had zilch to do with, "freedom and democarcy". They simplt exchanged one ruthless asshole, for a committee of ruthless assholes. They got rid of the Shah's secret police and in return got the Revolutionary Gaurd. The Spanish in 1936 could choose to be, "free", either with the Facists, or the Communists. IMO, the choice of the Egyptian people in this case isn't any different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Then clearly Iraq was a success.
    Excuse me?

    And thus it is a perfect model for integrating the MB into a democratized Egypt. Fundamentalist Islamic groups exist side by side with moderate and secular groups making up the polity.
    So the fact that Iraq is led by an Islamic government who are ideologically repressive serves as a perfect model for Egypt? Egypt can do better than Iraq.

    There are risks. But the point is that opposition voices are heard.
    And just like any other American politician, you are satisfied about leaving Iraq with a C-grade Democracy.

    It's a mixed bag, but getting better all the time.
    It has its ups and downs. Maybe one month 12 people would die instead of 20 the next. Not exactly your model nation still. But we're talking about its Democracy.

    Sure it does. Iraq is growing.
    4.5% (2009 est.)
    7.8% (2008 est.)
    1.5% (2007 est.)

    It is expected to decline further this year.

    Iraq GDP - real growth rate - Economy
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Excuse me?



    So the fact that Iraq is led by an Islamic government who are ideologically repressive serves as a perfect model for Egypt? Egypt can do better than Iraq.



    And just like any other American politician, you are satisfied about leaving Iraq with a C-grade Democracy.



    It has its ups and downs. Maybe one month 12 people would die instead of 20 the next. Not exactly your model nation still. But we're talking about its Democracy.



    4.5% (2009 est.)
    7.8% (2008 est.)
    1.5% (2007 est.)

    It is expected to decline further this year.

    Iraq GDP - real growth rate - Economy
    It takes time for a democratic society to mature. Saddam has only been gone for 7 years. It's took The United States 12 years to create a constitution, that would be ratified by the states and the colonists didn't have to worry about assassinations, or IED's every 15 minutes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    It takes time for a democratic society to mature. Saddam has only been gone for 7 years. It's took The United States 12 years to create a constitution, that would be ratified by the states and the colonists didn't have to worry about assassinations, or IED's every 15 minutes.
    Nope... Only the british empire... Nothing serious...

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Americans looking for terrorists under every Muslim rock overturned. No more than I should expect but it is still highly annoying.

    I am not surprised or going to ponder the irony that it is many Americans and others such as Israelis who seem to be the ones most opposed to a Democratic Muslim world.

    US and the West no matter how it tries to say it supports democracy for all. The truth is democracy is only supported for those countries as long as it falls in line with Western interests otherwise it is the enemy and something to oppose

    I am not even going to answer back to those who think that somehow Egypt should be denied democracy because they may choose the wrong people. I can't even get round my anger to point out the hypocrisy not to mention how ignorant and offensive that statement is. One cannot, like many Americans claim the value human rights, democracy and freedom is universal and then make up some bull**** excuse to exclude countries based on religion. Just be honest and say you do not support democracy period. I'd respect you more.

    As if US has always been a perfect democracy. This from a country which only a few decades ago and for some within living memory. Sections of their community was treated as sub human, denied rights, denied the right to vote and have their voice heard and oppressed.
    It has matured and evolved to try and reach to its ideal of equality and yet it is denying it for others in the world to have that same chance to evolve and change because they will not automatically establish a "perfect" democracy.
    How do we really know what the "Egyptian People" want here. All we have seen is what probably amounts to 1-3% of the population have demonstrasted for change. Last summer there were more than than number of people protesting in America, yet I did not see Obama step down.

    Why is it unreasonable to change the government in September according to their elections rather than forcing governments out by protests in the street. Isn't it more likely to be a smooth transition if it transpired after an election where parties had ample time to state their platforms to the public?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    So the fact that Iraq is led by an Islamic government who are ideologically repressive serves as a perfect model for Egypt? Egypt can do better than Iraq.
    Iraq's government type is not an Islamic Republic. It is a Parliamentary Democracy. Nor are they repressive. Your assumptions about Iraq are wrong. Here is a list of the political parties in Iraq.

    And just like any other American politician, you are satisfied about leaving Iraq with a C-grade Democracy.
    You keep calling it a C-grade Democracy with no supporting evidence. Rather it is a young democracy after decades of authoritarian rule. Your expectations are unrealistic.

    It has its ups and downs. Maybe one month 12 people would die instead of 20 the next. Not exactly your model nation still. But we're talking about its Democracy.
    Iraqi Death Rate.

    US Death Rate.


    4.5% (2009 est.)
    7.8% (2008 est.)
    1.5% (2007 est.)

    It is expected to decline further this year.

    Iraq GDP - real growth rate - Economy
    Compared the the US growth rate. Iraq has grown more than the US for the past three years and grew 4.5% last year in the midst of the global recession.

    When you are wrong, you are wrong. You should man up to the fact that you have reached the wrong conclusion about Iraq.

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