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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

  1. #1131
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    I was going to respond to initial points that I saw on the most recent page, but I figured it would be best to quickly start from beginning to explain some things and be done with them just in case it could have the tendency to derail a thread.

    You have a point. FOX has been leaning more and more towards supporting Mubarak in light of a possible Muslim Brotherhood takeover. This is a lack of vision and a lack of true wisdom, which is proof that people's idea of the "NeoCon" has been wrong all along.
    I have not, unlike most of America it seems, been able to closely follow the events surrounding Egypt. Likewise, I have not been able to read prominent thinker's positions on the matter. I am only speaking in generalities with temperament in the past.

    You will find it relatively common to see supposedly neoconservative foreign policy thinkers come to differing conclusions on who they support and why. To some degree it can be a splitting of hairs, but like some scholars would mention about the Lincoln/Douglas debates, some of those differences become paramount to each person.

    I think the splintering is largely occurring between those conservatives who consider Israel our primary ally in the region versus those who are more pragmatic and believe that we are best served by being true to our principles, regardless of the short term outcome.

    I guess I'm in the latter camp. Israel is an ally, but Israel routinely acts in their perceived best interest without consideration for how their actions will impact us. In some ways, Israel has been extremely detrimental to our national interests.
    There is perhaps some loaded wording here. The dichotomy between "chief ally" and "pragmatic self-interested principles" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. For instance, many neoconservatives came to the conclusion that it was immensely pragmatic to support Israel in ways that others found "Dual loyalty."

    Actually, strangely enough, it just furthers what my view of a Neo-conservative is. A form of conservatism that see's the government not as something that should be minimized, but as a tool that should be used...domestically and internationally...to institute the moral and legislative based ideas you have that you believe is best for the countries longevity and security and that said ideals are more important than growth of government, reduction of liberty, or cost in dollars. In this instance, the "threat of islamofascism" is to them a greater hinderance to their goals than the "spreading of democracy" is a boon, and as such they are shifting their view point to accomodate.

    To me, a neo-conservative is one who has little care for the governmental and fiscal sides of conservatism unless it suits them, an absolute extremist and somewhat distorted conservative view when it comes to the pillar of defense, and a similarly twisted and extreme view with regards to the social side all unified by a belief that ignoring, or outright rejection, of the first two pillars I stated in advancement of the latter two is worth while.

    I think in general people are in the right ballpark with how they use the word Neo-Con when its used as anything other than a mindless insult. The problem is that, one, like any political philosophy there is some wiggle room and two, most of the time people just use it as a mindless insult.
    To some extent, you are correct: neoconservatism is not opposed to government. Where your interpretation comes apart is with how it is to be used. For instance, domestic neoconservatives might take issue with others labeled neoconservative who embrace policy positions so readily without a deal of skepticism.

    So think of these two statements first (don't embrace the statements fully, because we are human after all)....

    "A liberal can easily rejoin that neoconservatives are equally disposed to accept dubious or nonexistent data about the beneficent effects of capitalism, the great value of school choice, and the crime reduction effects of punishment. My response is that when they do this they are not being good neoconservatives."-James Q. Wilson

    "We were never enthusiasts."-Nathan Glazer


    NeoCons were origainaly on the Left. They defected to the Republican base under Carter. They were against allowing Saddam Huessin his throne in 1991 (at a time when Rumsfeld and Cheney supported his containment.) When Rumsfeld and Cheny began seeing the short sighted error in the late 90s they began to lobby President Clinton to take out Hussein. In 2003, they get to be labeled "NeoCons?"

    How people have evolved to use it is wrong. The NeoCon agenda has always been about pushing democracy abroad with the absolute acknowledgement that it goes to serve our long term interests and security. It's these same short sighted dimwits, who are more scared of the Muslim Brotherhood and instability, that people still label as "NeoCons."
    To some extent, one wing of the Neoconservative persuasion, if you will, changed over during the Carter years. Those of the Scoop Jackson base probably felt like CDM felt after meeting with Carter and getting stuck with a post in Micronesia...circa late 1970s-1980. Others of the foreign policy neoconservative persuasion (I feel like I am doing some injustice here, since models have holes, and calling foreign policy neoconservatism one thing is rather....simplistic) moved earlier or later. The neoconservative foreign policy "agenda" (there's a problem here) was not always about pushing Democracy. Early on it was quite fine supporting regimes we felt were less than savory. Think of it this way, to them, on the other side of the fence, you had the New Left and other radicals perfectly fine with sympathizing with awful regimes of the socialist/communist variety, but damned opposed to less than savory American-supported regimes of the authoritarian variety. They were saying "hey, these folks actually help us, why on earth would an American want a regime that works against us and supports the USSR?" They could further rationalize it, but eventually, with, perhaps Paul Wolfowitz, the winds began to change some more. Wolfowitz argued that the issue of Human Rights, unlike many in the New Left and Conservative camps were not meant for just, one side or the other, but rather we should support regimes that do good for its people and treat them right. Around that time during the late Carter and early Reagan years, Wolfowitz (not to say he was the only one) kind of changed the notion of what our foreign policy could look like.

    Now, what people have to realize is, these guys are thinkers...academics, intellectuals, etc. Even though intellectuals and academics can have the tendency to shun differing opinions, for themselves, they like to think they have the ability to come up with their own framework. This means you will see some differences in opinion for what an American foreign policy should look like. Irving Kristol came to different conclusions (for at least a little bit) than what his son came to, etc.

    Finally, simply speaking, it was indeed a reaction to American liberal politics from the 1950s-1980s, and today. During that time, we have to acknowledge that with time, much becomes "liberal" or "conservative". Some liberals, who hold mostly the same views from FDR/Kennedy era are labeled "conservative" by 1965-1972. Many "neoconservatives" who grew up realizing they were "more conservative" than someone, they are conservatives and always saw themselves as some form of conservative. So yes, most of the dialogue from "neoconservatives" to their audience was typically supposed to be to other liberals or New Leftists, but over time that changed to them speaking to conservatives and liberals alike, or just conservatives.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 02-02-11 at 07:37 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  2. #1132
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    You simply do not know what you are talking about.

    THis is as good an overview as any:

    What the Heck Is a 'Neocon'? - Council on Foreign Relations
    Really?
    Wikipedia
    Neoconservatism in the United States is a version of US Conservatism which based on the tenets of Neoliberalism supports a limited welfare state in favour of low taxes and a free market. While rhetorically supportive of free markets, neoconservatives are still willing to interfere for overriding social purposes.[1]

    In foreign policy it defines national interests to include ideological interests e.g. the defense of other nations with similar ideologies for geopolitical purposes, proposing to use American economic and military power to bring democracy and capitalism to other countries.[2] Neoconservatives were strong supporters of the foreign policies of presidents Ronald Reagan (1981-89) and George W. Bush (2001-2009). The leadership role of Neoconservatives in pressing for an American-led overthrow of the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq in 2003 outraged many critics.
    Neocons became a force under Reagan. Not Clinton

    Ollie North was a neocon. He was never a liberal democrat.
    Last edited by Dirty Harry; 02-02-11 at 07:43 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Max Boot is, loosely speaking, a member of that Kagan-Kristol branch. To some extent it seems strange to put the others underneath William Kristol and Robert Kagan, but bear with me while I do that. He has some authority in the manner, but frankly, most attempts to "define" neoconservatism fail in one regard or another, because it is so...."well, it depends"
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  4. #1134
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Seeing as people are dying and protests are becoming violent, I think the fault is with the people. The president already said he would not seek reelection. I have friends in my school who are from Egypt, and I was asking them what they think and what is really going on. They are all Egyptian Coptic Christians, they said the man the rioters want to appoint is a Muslim man backed by the Muslim brotherhood. They want to make Egypt into an Islamic nation with Sharia law. This I cannot support, nor can I support the violence and irrational behavior of many of these protesters.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
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  5. #1135
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, but they all put their pants on one leg at a time and grew up in the same culture.
    If you think that the ME is all the same culture (even within the same country), you really should not base your estimation of what Obama should do on your expereinces.

  6. #1136
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    We had to? Man, you guys really are lockstep sheep, aren't you?

    A trillion dollars and thousands of lives later, it turns out Old Man Bush was right.
    Bush 41 was correct because that's all the UN Security Council authorized at the time, and that's all the Saudi's and other wanted. But Hussein was the same bastard he always was, which was proven out by mass graves. I have no doubt that his need for WMDs would have led to a second war with Iran.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  7. #1137
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    Really?
    Wikipedia


    Neocons became a force under Reagan. Not Clinton

    Ollie North was a neocon. He was never a liberal democrat.
    You should quite while you are behind. You mention wiki, but prove yourself incapable of comprehending what it actually says.

    "History and origins Great Depression and World War II "New" conservatives initially approached this view from the political left. The forerunners of neoconservatism were most often socialists or sometimes liberals who strongly supported the Allied cause in World War II, and who were influenced by the Great Depression-era ideas of the New Deal, trade unionism, and Trotskyism, particularly those who followed the political ideas of Max Shachtman.[citation needed] A number of future neoconservatives, such as Jeane Kirkpatrick,[citation needed] were Shachtmanites in their youth; some were later involved with Social Democrats USA.

    or this "The neoconservatives, arising from the anti-Stalinist left of the 1950s, opposed the anti-capitalism of the New Left of the 1960s. They broke from the liberal consensus of the early post-World War II years in foreign policy, and opposed Détente with the Soviet Union in the late 1960s and 1970s.

    Neoconservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Of course, since this was probably long before you were born by the sounds of it, it's all ancient history, right?
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  8. #1138
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    you are 100% correct about the origins of neoconservatism, i witnessed it

    today, a neocon is generally a republican who differs with his more genghis con comrades by advocating an activist foreign policy, especially in the middle east, whereas paleo cons continue to push their america first and rather isolationist brand

    neocons today are best personified by fox's bill kristol, son of the movement's consensually considered founder, irving

    i sincerely see that the term is the single most misused in our contemporary political lexicon

    thanks

  9. #1139
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I think that we should be making public statements in support of freedom and democracy and privately urging Mubarak to get the hell out tomorrow. Which is, I think, exactly what we're doing.

    Score one for Obama. I bet that just galls you, doesn't it?
    I agree with you, except I believe that privately Obama has already urged Mubarak to get out, since the WH is being quoted as saying "the time for change is now" in regards to Egypt. I just don't think Mubarak is going to do it. He's already let loose his plain-clothes police to break up the demonstrators and attack the media (Anderson Cooper's group got pummeled while tape was rolling). Mubarak has basically told his people they have two choices: Him... or chaos. Now he's giving them that chaos. He's not about to give up power. The "I won't run again" was a ruse, in my opinion, that he hoped would buy him time to create a crisis so that he could tell the people that the government must remain stable until the crisis is resolved. He created this crisis, I believe.

    The military is still the key. If they serve Mubarak and quell the protesters, then all is lost. It may already be lost. Those protesters have come so close to securing freedom and democracy for themselves for the first time in living memory... and I fear it will be snatched away from them by the barrel of a gun. I'm just sick about it, and so very sad.
    Last edited by DiAnna; 02-02-11 at 10:33 PM.

  10. #1140
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prof View Post
    you are 100% correct about the origins of neoconservatism, i witnessed it

    today, a neocon is generally a republican who differs with his more genghis con comrades by advocating an activist foreign policy, especially in the middle east, whereas paleo cons continue to push their america first and rather isolationist brand

    neocons today are best personified by fox's bill kristol, son of the movement's consensually considered founder, irving

    i sincerely see that the term is the single most misused in our contemporary political lexicon

    thanks
    To leftists we all look alike.

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