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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    What is the official conservative position on this crisis? Half say we should stand by Mubarak because the alternative will be worse and the other half say we should support the protesters and their quest for democracy. You guys better see what FOX wants you to think so you can all get on the same page..
    You don't know us do you? If you did you would see other points of view besides those you have enumerated. Some conservatives are neo-isolationists who believe in hands off; let the chips fall where they may. And other conservatives see the Egyptian crisis as fuel for the fire on the American homefront to be used against the Leftist Figurehead who rules America.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I responded to that.
    You danced around it.

    It proves the free press and the variety of voices being published in Iraq.
    Here is a huge list of newspapers in Iran:

    List of newspapers in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    You cannot measure freedom of speech by the amount of media outlets.

    Well, ElBaradei won't have much impact. The protesters will fail - they run out of food in a week and face organized opposition with the pro-M folks. Egypt may hold elections in 5 months but what about rewriting the constitution and reforming to a real democracy? Reforming existing institutions. These are the things that need doing for which Iraq is a model.
    But what makes you think Iraq? Your only argument is....."because there Arab". Your speculating - and trying to score points for the US where it deserves none.


    Ok, yeah, I agree, but Iraq being Arab is significant to other Arab people. I agree that Iraq is not the only model out there for Egyptians. Iraq being recent is very significant. It started the process of reform within the Arab ME.
    No it didn't. For starters, it would probably have started a lot sooner if that was the case. It could have happened 5 years from now and you would have said the same. If Iraq was an exceptional Arab democracy worth aspiring to, i would have been inclined to agree with you.

    NONE AT ALL?? Jeez, when your ideological, you're ideological to the end, aren't you?
    Dont get me wrong, Iraqis are no longer living in fear of a dictator anymore. But considering the horrendous security issues there, its just turning into a game of "one thing to fear over another". It hasn't really benefited the region beside Iran and to an extent Turkey.

    So a coalition of Shia, including conservative elements like Sadr, and the Kurds, who want Kirkuk, oil, and to be left alone as an quasi-independent region, as well as a strong negotiating position with the secular Sunni party led by Allawi is no role model? Their diplomatic position between Turkey and Iran and Saudi Arabia means nothing?
    Its just your average unity government, we see it all the time in Lebanon etc. It will probably eventually collapse under its weight just like your average unity government too.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 02-02-11 at 04:12 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    The "religious" left doesn't get pandered too?
    Not nearly to the degree that the religious right does, and we both know it, dude.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Di Salvo View Post
    You don't know us do you? If you did you would see other points of view besides those you have enumerated. Some conservatives are neo-isolationists who believe in hands off; let the chips fall where they may. And other conservatives see the Egyptian crisis as fuel for the fire on the American homefront to be used against the Leftist Figurehead who rules America.
    Which one are you? I am a hands off kind of guy.
    Last edited by Dirty Harry; 02-02-11 at 04:13 PM.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Good political column from Jonah Goldberg of the National Review:

    Hope Amid the Chaos in Cairo - Jonah Goldberg - National Review Online

    This is a moment in which political decency and, eventually, freedom and democracy at least have a shot. That wasn’t true a month ago.

    U.S. support of dictators is always shameful, even when it is occasionally necessary. But it is unforgivable when necessity gives way to mere complacency. We passed that point with Hosni Mubarak years ago. As Condoleezza Rice said, we traded freedom for stability in the Middle East and got neither. Now, the stability is collapsing, which at least makes freedom possible.

    Unlike many pundits who’ve miraculously become Egyptologists overnight, I don’t pretend to know what will happen next. But I do know that you can’t get where we need to go without going through moments like this.
    This is pretty much my opinion on the matter. None of us knows what will happen. But, the odds of something good happening are significantly greater than they were a week ago. The odds of something bad happening are also greater.

    But something bad was already happening. The U.S. was propping up a thug who violated the human rights of his people. That's bad.

    You can't make a cake without breaking a few eggs. Some eggs will get broken in Egypt over the next few months. None of us can predict what will be made with those eggs, though.

    however, I think it's important to remember that, as it existed, the status quo was already broken and bad.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    Which one are you?
    Do we even have to ask? Clearly, he's the last one.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08
    Dont get me wrong, Iraqis are no longer living in fear of a dictator anymore. But considering the horrendous security issues there, its just turning into a game of "one thing to fear over another". It hasn't really benefited the region beside Iran and to an extent Turkey.
    I mean this with complete respect to the memory of our boys who lost their lives for there country and all those brave and honorable men who served and came back home to us safely.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 02-02-11 at 04:17 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    What is the official conservative position on this crisis? Half say we should stand by Mubarak because the alternative will be worse and the other half say we should support the protesters and their quest for democracy. You guys better see what FOX wants you to think so you can all get on the same page..
    The stick-by-Mubarak crowd are a lot like the George HW Bush crowd that said removing Saddam (during Desert Storm) would make things worse, only to find out we had to remove him later anyway. I believe that we should support the implimentation of democratic principles through reform, and thereby support the leader who plans to reform along these lines. Apparenly Mubarak hasn't been doing that for his tenure in office, and no one should be in power that long anyway.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    The stick-by-Mubarak crowd are a lot like the George HW Bush crowd that said removing Saddam (during Desert Storm) would make things worse, only to find out we had to remove him later anyway. .
    We had to? Man, you guys really are lockstep sheep, aren't you?

    A trillion dollars and thousands of lives later, it turns out Old Man Bush was right.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    You danced around it.
    No, I showed the content behind the number. Not surprising for a new democracy. You don't expect it to be an 8 after 7 years do you? Before we can say it was a successful start? It was a successful start and the men and women who died there for it did not die in vain.



    Here is a huge list of newspapers in Iran:

    List of newspapers in Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    You cannot measure freedom of speech by the amount of media outlets.
    Fair enough. But I know from translations that many of these publications are openly critical of the government and PM Maliki. That's probably not the case with the Iranian publications.

    But what makes you think Iraq? Your only argument is....."because there Arab". Your speculating - and trying to score points for the US where it deserves none.
    I am not merely trying to score points. I am asserting the recognition that what the US did was valuable and helpful to Iraq and the region. We acted appropriately. It is a model for the region.

    I know Iraq is quiet in the news. Perhaps you are unaware of economic developments in Iraq brought about by a stable government and rule of law. Regionally, they are more aware of such developments.


    No it didn't. For starters, it would probably have started a lot sooner if that was the case. It could have happened 5 years from now and you would have said the same. If Iraq was an exceptional Arab democracy worth aspiring to, i would have been inclined to agree with you.

    Dont get me wrong, Iraqis are no longer living in fear of a dictator anymore. But considering the horrendous security issues there, its just turning into a game of "one thing to fear over another". It hasn't really benefited the region beside Iran and to an extent Turkey.

    Its just your average unity government, we see it all the time in Lebanon etc. It will probably eventually collapse under its weight just like your average unity government too.
    You really are unbelievably uninformed about Iraq.

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