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Thread: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I note that the Palestinians are doing even better. Imagine, Hamas and Fatah getting something right!
    I guess you could say the Palestinians are doing better if you over look the fact that for over 40 years the UN and their brothers have kept "refugee" camps open rather than welcoming them as citizens. I wonder given the 40+ (isn't it really closer to 60+) years, are there any "refugees" from the establishment of Israel still there?

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE=Grant;1059259845]

    Except you didn't say they were "flawed". And of curse a struggling democracy is always better than an efficiecient dictatorship.
    You didn't understand me then.

    Oh and i agree, im just telling you that to call Iraq a model democracy is an insult to those who have fought and died for it.

    Excuse me??? Are you saying the European nations went directly from monarchies and dictatorships to democracies without lives being lost? Or the struggle against Communism and Fascism?

    Do they not teach you French history in the UK anymore?
    WTF?
    When i said media was censored in Iraq, you said:

    You can say the same thing of Western Europe nations. You preferred the previous democracy in Iraq? You apparently know little of what is going on in Iraq,
    So what are you talking about?


    Do you see any riots going on in Baghdad? In fact it is a good role model for other ME nations. Which other would serve better?
    Turkey, which is also a part of the ME.
    To insinuate Iraq is a role model is like telling me Zimbabwe is the leader of gay rights
    in the world. The people aren't protesting there because they cant even gather in large crowds and the political divides are so colossal they disagree and fight amongst each other just for the sake of it.

    Egyptians haven't protested until now, doesn't mean there problems have only materialized in the past few days.

    But that's not what you said though, was it? You said the Americans have left, which shows you know as much about that area of the world as you do about European history. It's not smart to guess at history or current events.
    Its not remotely entertaining that you aim to twist my words. The war has in effect ended. The American battalions responsible for invading and fighting terrorism has largely left. The rest are supporting the security forces.

    You might want to consider an upgrade.
    There is a fine line between a fool and an American patriot such as yourself.

    So i try and stick to my neutral sources.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 02-02-11 at 01:16 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Thats your personal opinion....even though history would tell us what your saying is wrong.
    Not a problem. All you need to do now is quote me where I'm wrong and we can go from there.
    The nations the US has meddled in the most are actually by and far everything but democratic. Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan....and the list goes on.
    So you feel that the history of these nations was negatively affected by the United States? Why not take them one at a time so we can decide where the US went wrong in each of them? I suppose you feel that the United States should have introduced democracy to countries all over the world by persuasive conversation. Is that your tactic?

    If all it takes is to string a few words together then the Western Europeans should be able to handle that much.
    The only way anything has ever changed is when the people demand it. The people are currently demanding Democracy in Tunisia and Egypt. And when you pull your patriotism aside, you will see it was done entirely on their own merit.
    Is that what they are demanding?

    I think we should wait and see before we decide on what was behind the riots and what the consequences might be. Riots in the streets do not necessarily lead to democracy.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE][QUOTE=kaya'08;1059260054]
    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    You didn't understand me then.

    Oh and i agree, im just telling you that to call Iraq a model democracy is an insult to those who have fought and died for it.
    If you genuinely want to continue this conversation I'm going to have to insist you use quotes.

    I did never say Iraq was a "model democracy". That is a lie.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Of course it is. They have independent institutions to secure the democracy. It is not a fig leaf covering an authoritarian regime. All people of Iraq has representation and deals and negotiation is occurring.
    You have been proven wrong by Kandahars evidence already. The Iraqi democracy is a sham.

    Proves there is a free press, which you claimed was not the case.
    There was a list of newspapers. Sorry, what does that prove?

    This is what I have been saying. But even more, Iraq will be a model for political transformation to a democracy. Other instances of democracies do not provide a recent example of transition.
    It need not be recent and Egyptians could not possibly relate to Iraq. The Iraqi transformation process was not self instructed. It was imported by an occupying power and it resembled more like an instant microwave democracy rather than a "transition" which assumes there where some sort of long stretching process involving the people - something that was lacking in Iraq.

    In Egypt, the situation is different. The people are here to impose the democracy and there united across political divides. It was not forced onto them and they have agreed that El Baradei should lead the revolt. The two "transitions" to democracy cannot possibly be contrasted.


    Turkey is non-Arab and does not provide a recent example of transformation.
    The fact that it is non-Arab is an irrelevant and pathetic excuse.

    The Kemalist transition to Democracy is very very relevant to theocratic and autocratic regimes in the ME because its precisely the Kemalist reforms that dismantled the religious institutions and modernized them, devolved powers to executive branches and removed a head of state who had absolute sovereign (the boldened being most relevant to Egypt).

    You cannot deny that Turkey is very popular in the Arab world and its popularity has resulted in many aspiring to its Democracy and state of economy among Arab states.

    Then is it your position that events in Iraq over the past 7 years have had NO IMPACT on events in the region or the protests within Tunisia and Egypt?
    No positive impacts, no.
    And the protests in Tunisia and Egypt have nothing to do with Iraq. The only role model Iraq has played for these countries is to model a democratic system that resembles nothing like Iraq.

    Explain the connection to Turkey, with the protests in Egypt.
    Look up. And you also partially explain the reason below:

    The impact of Turkey will be to help democratization of ME countries as Turkey's influence grows over the region to counter Iran and re-establish a pseudo-Ottoman Empire again. The economy, literacy, and diplomacy will dominate the ME over the next 30 years. Turkey unequivocally supports the opposition to these dictatorships.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 02-02-11 at 01:32 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    [QUOTE=Grant;1059260078][QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post

    If you genuinely want to continue this conversation I'm going to have to insist you use quotes.

    I did never say Iraq was a "model democracy". That is a lie.
    Sorry, i was referring to reef's case in point. Im getting a little muddled up with you guys.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post

    Not a problem. All you need to do now is quote me where I'm wrong and we can go from there.
    I have listed these countries and historic examples of why you are incorrect.

    So you feel that the history of these nations was negatively affected by the United States? Why not take them one at a time so we can decide where the US went wrong in each of them? I suppose you feel that the United States should have introduced democracy to countries all over the world by persuasive conversation. Is that your tactic?
    No - my tactic is something you will despise: not invading them, not massacring them, allowing the people to call for Democracy and fight for it themselves. How terrible. American interests in each of these nations have either strengthened evil forces at work or created one extreme over another.

    Is that what they are demanding?

    I think we should wait and see before we decide on what was behind the riots and what the consequences might be. Riots in the streets do not necessarily lead to democracy.
    In which case lets hope the US stops funding Mubarak. They may stand half a chance.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 02-02-11 at 01:38 PM.
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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So you feel that the history of these nations was negatively affected by the United States? Why not take them one at a time so we can decide where the US went wrong in each of them? I suppose you feel that the United States should have introduced democracy to countries all over the world by persuasive conversation. Is that your tactic?
    how about if we not presume to tell people how to run their countries? live and let live anyone?
    Democracy is two wolves and sheep voting on what's for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep willing to contest the vote.

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Economist rates Iraq a 4.00 on their 10-point "Democracy Index." That's not considered a full democracy or even a flawed democracy. It's the bare minimum score that can even be considered a democratic-autocratic hybrid state. Iraq scores lower than Russia and just barely above Cuba on the Democracy Index.

    Iraq may have a Parliament and Prime Minister (finally), but it's hardly a "democratic democracy" which serves as a good role model for other Arab states. Furthermore, Iraq is sitting on top of oil whereas Tunisia and Egypt are not. I cannot overemphasize how important oil is, as a retarding force on democratic development. Tunisia and Egypt should be able to do far better than Iraq.
    Let's dig a bit into this score of 4.00 for Iraq and its 111 ranking in the Index.

    The Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index is based on 60 indicators grouped in five different categories: electoral process and pluralism, civil liberties, functioning of government, political participation and political culture.
    Category scores
    Country.....Rank....Overall...I Electoral process..II Functioning of..III Political...IV Political....V Civil liberties
    ...........................score......and pluralism........government.....participation...cu lture

    Lebanon......86.......5.82..........7.92.......... .....3.93............6.67...........5.00.......... ..5.59
    Turkey........89.......5.73..........7.92......... ......7.14............3.89...........5.00......... ...4.71
    Iraq..........111.........4.00.............4.33... ................0.79................6.11.......... ....3.75...............5.00
    Egypt........138.......3.07..........0.83......... ......3.21............2.78...........5.00......... ...3.53
    Let's look at the scores for the categories for Iraq.

    I Electoral process and pluralism: scored low compared to Lebanon and Turkey since it is BRAND SPANKING NEW! The political parties have barely had time for form and create an identity with the people. Iraqis tend to vote ethnically at the moment and differences between secular versus religious parties are not pronounced.

    II Functioning of Government: It is BRAND SPANKING NEW! They have yet to turn into the well oiled machine. Of course it is in the sewer, it just formed and the various ministries still haven't figured out how to operate nationally. Most services are locally managed, barely.

    III Political Participation: Excellent! They have large electoral turnouts.

    IV Political culture: Just started to form a broad-based political culture after decades of it being an illegal activity.

    V Civil liberties: On measure with Turkey and Lebanon.


    No. of......Democracy index........Full.........Flawed........Hybrid.... Authoritarian
    countries......average.........democracies..democr acies....regimes...regimes

    North America
    .....2...............8.63...................2..... .........0................0...........0
    Western Europe
    ....21..............8.45..................16...... .......4.................1..........0
    Eastern Europe
    ....28..............5.55....................1..... ......15.................6..........6
    Latin America & the Caribbean
    ....24..............6.37....................2..... ......15.................6..........1
    Asia & Australasia
    ....28..............5.53....................4..... ......10.................7..........7
    Middle East & North Africa
    ....20..................3.43...................... ..0.................1.....................3....... .....16

    Sub-Saharan Africa
    ....44..............4.23....................1..... ........8...............10.........25
    The Middle East is in horrible shape, worse than Sub-Saharan Africa. Positive movement of any country in the ME is an incredible example. The size of the jump Iraq has made since 2003 is quite significant.

    The Economist Intelligence Unit measure
    The Economist Intelligence Unit’s index is based on the view that measures of democracy that reflect the state of political freedoms and civil liberties are not “thick” enough. They do not encompass sufficiently or at all some features that determine how substantive democracy is or its quality. Freedom is an essential component of democracy, but not sufficient. In existing measures, the elements of political participation and functioning of government are taken into account only in a marginal and formal way. The Economist Intelligence Unit’s democracy index is based on five categories: electoral process and pluralism; civil liberties; the functioning of government; political participation; and political culture. The five categories are inter-related and form a coherent conceptual whole. The condition of having free and fair competitive elections, and satisfying related aspects of political freedom, is clearly the sine quo none of all definitions. All modern definitions, except the most minimalist, also consider civil liberties to be a vital component of what is often called “liberal democracy”. The principle of the protection of basic human rights is widely accepted. It is embodied in constitutions throughout the world as well as in the UN Charter and international agreements such as the Helsinki Final Act (the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe). Basic human rights include the freedom of speech, expression and the press; freedom of religion; freedom of assembly and association; and the right to due judicial process. All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic. In a democracy majority rule must be combined with guarantees of individual human rights and the rights of minorities.

    Most measures also include aspects of the minimum quality of functioning of government. If democratically-based decisions cannot or are not implemented then the concept of democracy is not very meaningful or it becomes an empty shell. Democracy is more than the sum of its institutions. A democratic political culture is also crucial for the legitimacy, smooth functioning and ultimately the sustainability of democracy. A culture of passivity and apathy, an obedient and docile citizenry, are not consistent with democracy. The electoral process periodically divides the population into winners and losers. A successful democratic political culture implies that the losing parties and their supporters accept the judgment of the voters, and allow for the peaceful transfer of power. Participation is also a necessary component, as apathy and abstention are enemies of democracy. Even measures that focus predominantly on the processes of representative, liberal democracy include (although inadequately or insufficiently) some aspects of participation. In a democracy, government is only one element in a social fabric of many and varied institutions, political organisations, and associations. Citizens cannot be required to take part in the political process, and they are free to express their dissatisfaction by not participating. However, a healthy democracy requires the active, freely chosen participation of citizens in public life. Democracies flourish when citizens are willing to participate in public debate, elect representatives and join political parties. Without this broad, sustaining participation, democracy begins to wither and become the preserve of small, select groups.
    Iraq is termed a Hybrid Regime...
    Hybrid regimes: Elections have substantial irregularities that often prevent them from being both free and fair. Government pressure on opposition parties and candidates may be common. Serious weaknesses are more prevalent than in flawed democracies--in political culture, functioning of government and political participation. Corruption tends to be widespread and the rule of law is weak. Civil society is weak. Typically there is harassment of and pressure on
    journalists, and the judiciary is not independent
    I think there is no doubt that Iraq is not perfect. However, it does have the constitutional and institutional foundation as a very young democracy.

    The 60 questions can be found at the end of the Democracy index 2010. Notably see the questions for the category II Functioning of Government, for which Iraq scored quite low. Some examples:

    17. Foreign powers do not determine important government functions or policies.
    18. Special economic, religious or other powerful domestic groups do not exercise significant political power, parallel to democratic institutions?
    19. Are sufficient mechanisms and institutions in place for assuring government accountability to the electorate in between elections?
    22. How pervasive is corruption?
    23. Is the civil service willing and capable of implementing government policy?
    25. Public confidence in government
    26. Public confidence in political parties

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    Re: Riots erupt in Egypt as protesters demand end to Mubarak regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Iraq does serve as a valuable object lesson of "what not to do." The middle eastern states hardly need to look to Iraq as an example of a secular democracy. They have Turkey and Indonesia, both of which are far better case studies in how a nation can be both Islamic and democractic.

    Our nation building efforts in Iraq were hugely flawed and have yet to pay off. They were well-intentioned, but in retrospect, have not succeeded, perhaps because of flaws in execution and planning, as well as flaws in the expectation of what would happen, on the ground, when we arrived, along with flaws in our treatment of the Iraqi army.
    Not at all. It did provide a democratization model to the ME. The biggest problem that had to be dealt with, and fed the difficulties in execution, and still today is the major stumbling block, is the ethnic rivalries. Egypt does not suffer from this.

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